055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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charles18

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I'm also really not sure about this particular salvo order. The primary benefit of sea-skimming missiles is the fact that they can get really, really close to ships (in naval terms, so several dozen kilometers) before they can be cued by radar suites but they are relatively easy to intercept when they have been detected. Ballistic missiles, on the other hand, are really hard to intercept but easy to detect (since they fly so high). I don't know why the Chinese navy would launch the easy to detect missile first and then follow up with the more easily intercepted but better concealed missile. It would make much more sense to open with the stealthier missiles to attempt system degradation and then follow up with a ballistic missile than the other way round. Launching ballistic missiles at the opening would just tell the defending fleet that they are being attack and cause them to jump to battle-stations, giving them a longer period of time to attempt to intercept the sea-skimmers.

......

The air is more dense at sea level than at higher altitudes. Therefore the air resistance (an aircraft or missile experiences) at sea level is much greater compared to higher altitudes. This is why commercial planes typically fly at 35,000 feet. Less air resistance == More fuel efficiency == Longer range. Getting back to missiles: A missile that flies at high altitudes should have longer range.

If it was up to me, I'd take longer range missiles instead of missiles that try to "fly under the radar". Besides with the advent of AEW aircraft your enemy will see you coming from 100 miles away even with sea skimming missiles. So what's the point of trying to sea skim?

Maybe I'm missing something here?
 

charles18

Junior Member
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I'm not sure how useful of a comparison this is. Missiles aren't darts you throw at people at the hopes of using the kinetic force to damage them. .....
Well actually....
The damage a missile delivers to its target is based on both the energy of the explosive warhead and also the kinetic energy of the missile itself. Take for example the BrahMos missile. The surface launched version "only" has a 200 kg warhead but, it has a ramjet engine that gives it a maximum speed of Mach 3+
The kinetic energy of the missile alone would seriously damage the targeted ship.

Furthermore
KE = 1/2*m*v^2
if the velocity doubles then the kinetic Energy quadruples. This is why a fast moving AShM missile would be very dangerous.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
I'm also really not sure about this particular salvo order. The primary benefit of sea-skimming missiles is the fact that they can get really, really close to ships (in naval terms, so several dozen kilometers) before they can be cued by radar suites but they are relatively easy to intercept when they have been detected. Ballistic missiles, on the other hand, are really hard to intercept but easy to detect (since they fly so high). I don't know why the Chinese navy would launch the easy to detect missile first and then follow up with the more easily intercepted but better concealed missile. It would make much more sense to open with the stealthier missiles to attempt system degradation and then follow up with a ballistic missile than the other way round. Launching ballistic missiles at the opening would just tell the defending fleet that they are being attack and cause them to jump to battle-stations, giving them a longer period of time to attempt to intercept the sea-skimmers.

There's also the cost. As I recall, China can make sea skimmers for several million and their DFs for around a hundred million. It just makes more economic sense, assuming you don't want to open up a synchronized salvo to attempt to overwhelm air defenses, to start with the cheaper missiles to probe the system and only follow up with the more expensive one if the cruise missiles don't achieve their objectives.

where did you get DFs would cost a hundred million? if you meant in Yuan, I think it is about right, but definitely not in US$
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'm also really not sure about this particular salvo order. The primary benefit of sea-skimming missiles is the fact that they can get really, really close to ships (in naval terms, so several dozen kilometers) before they can be cued by radar suites but they are relatively easy to intercept when they have been detected. Ballistic missiles, on the other hand, are really hard to intercept but easy to detect (since they fly so high). I don't know why the Chinese navy would launch the easy to detect missile first and then follow up with the more easily intercepted but better concealed missile. It would make much more sense to open with the stealthier missiles to attempt system degradation and then follow up with a ballistic missile than the other way round. Launching ballistic missiles at the opening would just tell the defending fleet that they are being attack and cause them to jump to battle-stations, giving them a longer period of time to attempt to intercept the sea-skimmers.

There's also the cost. As I recall, China can make sea skimmers for several million and their DFs for around a hundred million. It just makes more economic sense, assuming you don't want to open up a synchronized salvo to attempt to overwhelm air defenses, to start with the cheaper missiles to probe the system and only follow up with the more expensive one if the cruise missiles don't achieve their objectives.


I was thinking more in terms of missiles attacking land targets. The gate consists of a chain of stationary radar sites both air search and OTH search for ships, and long range SAM/ASM installations placed along the coast or islands.

If I attack this defensive chain with Mach 5 missiles, it would only take 5 minutes from launch to target across 500km. That's the reaction time the defenders are given. If I attack this chain with Mach 0.9 cruise missiles (note, cruise missiles are more likely to be around Mach 0.6), it would take roughly around 30 minutes. That's way a lot more reaction time.

If if say, you are using sea skimmer missiles, there might still be ways to pick them up, like for example AEW aircraft. If stealthy, you still have to deal with long frequency radar. Stray radio from datalinks can also be picked up, sometimes over the horizon by ESM, enough to give warning that something is coming, even if you don't know precisely where it is.

Against a Mach 5 missile, SAM systems have a maximum speed for their engagement envelope. In other words, the target has a maximum speed which the SAM system can still track and engage, and the interceptor missile is still able to interdict. If that limit is set at Mach 4, it can't do anything in the face of a Mach 5 or 6 missile. You are going to need a new missile system specifically designed to deal with threats that fly that fast. So even if the defensive SAMs and radars could see the missile coming, they are helpless against it, they can only watch from their radars while they face impending doom. Your defensive chain would need to have the investment of an ABM defense, or SAMs and engagement radars that are fast enough to deal with hypersonic targets.

The hypersonic threat itself does not fly in a looping ballistic arc that makes it easier to detect, but instead it skims the upper atmosphere. So instead of a tall arc, the flight path looks like a series of waves at the upper atmosphere. That sort of maneuvering also makes the missile difficult to intercept unless you have some dedicated algorithm to counteract this wavelike movement.
 

dasCKD

New Member
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The air is more dense at sea level than at higher altitudes. Therefore the air resistance (an aircraft or missile experiences) at sea level is much greater compared to higher altitudes. This is why commercial planes typically fly at 35,000 feet. Less air resistance == More fuel efficiency == Longer range. Getting back to missiles: A missile that flies at high altitudes should have longer range.
Which is something missiles can also utilize. There's nothing stopping a missile from cruising at high altitudes and then flying lower as they approach the target.
If it was up to me, I'd take longer range missiles instead of missiles that try to "fly under the radar". Besides with the advent of AEW aircraft your enemy will see you coming from 100 miles away even with sea skimming missiles. So what's the point of trying to sea skim?

Maybe I'm missing something here?
The point of sea-skimming missiles is to reduce the amount of time that is available to the defending fleet between the moment any such missiles are detected and from when they would land on the target fleet. It doesn't matter whether you use the antennas of your ship or AEWs for early warning, the geometry of the strike profiles of ballistic missiles inherently makes it possible to detect earlier in its flight phase than a ballistic missiles.
1659162663481.png
This image assumes a land-based radar suite, but ultimately the geometry works the exact same way. Jets can generally fly at heights at the low double-digits, whilst missiles have ranges that go from several hundred to several thousand kilometers. The fact that the PRC is continuing to procure cruise missiles and hypersonic glide vehicles would also indicate that they, too, see the benefit of utilizing lower flying missiles. In the context of the type 055 destroyers, it means the PLAN can base both the shorter-ranged cruise missiles aboard the ships and then use ballistic missiles fired from land to generate a far larger salvo than the ballistic missiles could do alone. Ballistic missiles are more detectable, however, and so it is to the benefit of any type 055, during salvo generation, to launch the missiles first if they want the slower and shorter-ranged but less detectable missiles to have the maximum level of efficacy.

This isn't an either/or scenario. We aren't going to wake up tomorrow to read that all of the anti-ship missile stock aboard the type 055 has been replaced with ballistic missiles. The weapons have different advantages and disadvantages and it is to both the type 055's benefit individually and for the PLA's anti-ship complex as a whole to utilize as many missile profiles as reasonably possible.
Well actually....
The damage a missile delivers to its target is based on both the energy of the explosive warhead and also the kinetic energy of the missile itself. Take for example the BrahMos missile. The surface launched version "only" has a 200 kg warhead but, it has a ramjet engine that gives it a maximum speed of Mach 3+
The kinetic energy of the missile alone would seriously damage the targeted ship.

Furthermore
KE = 1/2*m*v^2
if the velocity doubles then the kinetic Energy quadruples. This is why a fast moving AShM missile would be very dangerous.
It might have the kinetic energy to damage a ship, but missiles really aren't built to kill targets by delivering the impact force onto them. Compared to explosives, kinetic impactors damage a very small 'spread' of material, requiring much higher accuracy if you want to effect the same amount of damage onto a target. Kinetic impactors are great if you target a tank where all of the sensitive equipment and the squishy humans are packed inside of a small box. It's much less effective when your target is a ship like the type 055 or the Burkes where most of the space aboard the vessel would just be empty space without vital equipment. Calculating the kinetic energy inside of a missile is all well and good, but when seeing how effective a missile would be it's far better to see how much of that energy could actually be put somewhere useful to effect the degradation and the destruction of the target system.

Regardless, this is a discussion that is fast-steering away from type 055 destroyers and into the discussion of missiles. One last indulgence, however.
where did you get DFs would cost a hundred million? if you meant in Yuan, I think it is about right, but definitely not in US$
I saw the 100 million figure on another forum and I assumed that the forum user looked up their numbers. Checking up again, the estimates are instead between 8 million to 20 million per unit which should be much closer to the cruise missiles that a Type 055 might decide to carry.
 

by78

General
Just a nice image to mark the 95th anniversary of the founding of the PLA.

52252772007_7647fd39a1_k.jpg
 
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