055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
The Sylver VLS and the Aster 15 and 30s definitely limit the Daring class to air defence but in this field it supposedly is second to none, if range of missiles are ignored. Then again as a purpose designed destroyer to fleet defence, Asters have enough range. The RN's doctrine is similar to the USN's - centred around a carrier fighter wing that can perform various missions. Everything else on the surface is to protest those carriers and perform some limited anti-surface roles itself along with a comprehensive anti-sub warfare in combination with airborne assets. So comparing them truly is inappropriate. Personally I think this doctrine is superior to the "Russian" one which is just spamming the ocean with capital ships armed to the teeth lobbing hundreds of anti-ship missiles with subs performing a secondary role to supplement this effort while countering enemy subs.

We have seen PLAN shift towards the US doctrine since it selected the air defence focused Type 052C over the Type 052B and invest heavily in a strong future carrier fleet with the rest of the surface fleet serving as multirole ships but also primarily air defence eventually, when matured CATOBAR carriers come along with the entire air wing they'll carry. For now PLAN is still very much giving 055's multirole status and they clearly want these heavy destroyers to serve both doctrines well. China's always taken what it considers the best from Russian thinking and combined it with American while mixing its own in too. The perks of catch-up position. The matured Type 055 will probably get quad packed medium range SAMs to add to existing repertoire. Maybe a railgun and ballistic missile defence or ASAT missiles similar to SM-3 as well. That's going to be a Kirov + AB III with a railgun.


Now that you mentioned it, the Type 052C is what's closest to the Type 45. Both have 48 VLS for SAMs, just the size of it differs, the HQ-9 is more than double the weight of an Aster 30, and 8 canisters for ASMs, also just the size of it differs, the YJ-62 are more like Tomahawks in size than Harpoons. What the Type 45 tries to achieve with precision, the Type 052C achieves with brute force. Another coincidence --- both classes have only six ships.

The Type 45 is a great design that has potential but politics sort of ruined it. The VLS it has is only 5 meters deep, which is shallower than the Type 054A's. This does not permit any use on the VLS other than the Aster 15 and 30s. It does not have the 7 meter Sylver like the FREMM frigates have that can launch the SCALP cruise missile. It is said that what's beneath the VLS is a gym. The antiship missiles it has is your grandfather's era of Harpoons. Why it doesn't use the latest antiship missiles from the same European consortium that supplied the Aster missiles in the first place? I don't know. After all both Asters and Exocets are MBDA. For what its worth, I suspect the Type 45, and the large European frigates in general, might be more spacious inside and more comfortable ships than the Chinese warships, which seems like they are designed with weapons and sensors first, living space later. That extra comfort can be of benefit to the crew in long deployments.
 

ougoah

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Registered Member
The Daring is basically the same as the Forbin isn't it? Yeah stifled by bureaucracy. Then again it does its job well supposedly and with great finesse and efficiency. The type 052C was basically PLAN looking into this sort of destroyer and the first time it dipped its toes into this pool. A point of departure from the Russian influence of how naval combat is supposed to work and what it's supposed to achieve.

I would say even with China's shift towards more American style military structure and hardware, the emphasis on crew comfort will forever remain Russian i.e. wanting. Westerners place a high priority on crew comfort. The Challenger tanks have tea making equipment! and all of them supposedly have excellent AC. Older Russian and Chinese tanks are lucky to have a fan inside and the fume extractor is truly woeful even on Type 96s and VT-4s. The only Russian exception is the Su-34 with the toilets and the Typhoon and Akula class with its indoor pool. But it looks like this. For old subs their interiors and crew quarters are still impressive.

upload_2020-1-20_20-34-47.png
 

steve_rolfe

Junior Member
The real problem for the Type 45 was that there was never any total political conviction from the government to truly fund the type 45 to realize its full potential. I mean it was a real struggle just to even get the Harpoons fitted to the class, and even then only 4 out of the 6 were issued with them. Shame, as having the opportunity to go aboard HMS Daring it was a very impressive ship, with plenty of space, and very neatly laid out.
Basically the Labour government of the time, blackmailed the Navy into reducing the number of surface combatants, if it wanted the Carriers, hence why the seventh, and eighth type 45's were never built!
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
The real problem for the Type 45 was that there was never any total political conviction from the government to truly fund the type 45 to realize its full potential. I mean it was a real struggle just to even get the Harpoons fitted to the class, and even then only 4 out of the 6 were issued with them. Shame, as having the opportunity to go aboard HMS Daring it was a very impressive ship, with plenty of space, and very neatly laid out.
Basically the Labour government of the time, blackmailed the Navy into reducing the number of surface combatants, if it wanted the Carriers, hence why the seventh, and eighth type 45's were never built!

Those political decisions seem to make sense though. Can't be wasting too many of those pounds. Last time I checked the UK didn't have reserve currency status either. I don't know how the Type 45 can be considered to not have realised its full potential. It was always designed to be focused on air defence. The Brits are going the USN path where its teeth and claws are F-35s on carriers with some of the best subs in the world handling everything below surface. The Astute and Vanguard are quite impressive, read best in world alongside Virginias. RN is going to bring out the Dreadnought in near future. The only drawback the RN has is numbers. The USN is basically the RN^(RN). That's where the real threat to China is.

So essentially the Daring does its job and they don't really require that many more compared to the size of the carrier fleet.

If all these imperialist allies gang up on China again if you throw France, Australia, and Japan into the mix, I reckon PLAN will try and buy some of those nice poseidon "unlimited range" nuclear torpedoes from Russia. If it means China pulling the trigger, they may happily sell some.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The real problem for the Type 45 was that there was never any total political conviction from the government to truly fund the type 45 to realize its full potential. I mean it was a real struggle just to even get the Harpoons fitted to the class, and even then only 4 out of the 6 were issued with them. Shame, as having the opportunity to go aboard HMS Daring it was a very impressive ship, with plenty of space, and very neatly laid out.
Basically the Labour government of the time, blackmailed the Navy into reducing the number of surface combatants, if it wanted the Carriers, hence why the seventh, and eighth type 45's were never built!

Along with the space for 16 strike length VLS cells that were never fitted?
 
well in military matters I've always believed in force, not in words, so for me a comparison of Chinese Types 055; 52D and the RN Type 45 comes down to an armament-to-displacement ratio in the sense of
The Main-Armament Level Of Warships Entering Service thread:
the square represents 1.0 k-displacing Project 21631 (so called Buyan-M with eight so called Kalibrs: if you want to nitpick or don't know what I talk about, please skip reading this); 8 tubes in total

the circle symbol represents 2.5 k-displacing Project 20385 (8 Kalibrs, 16 cells of so called Redut: again, don't nitpick!); 24 tubes in total

the upward-pointing triangle symbol represents 3.6 k-displacing Incheon-II (8 Korean AShMs, 16 cells Korean VLS); 24 tubes in total

the downward-pointing triangle symbol represents 4.0 k-displacing Project 11356 (8 Kalibrs, 24 cells of so called Shtil: again, don't nitpick!); 32 tubes in total

the diamond symbol represents 4.1 k-displacing Type 054A (32 cells VLS; 8xC-803); 40 tubes in total

the left-pointing triangle symbol represents 5.4 k-displacing Project 22350 (16 Kalibrs, 32 cells of Redut: don't start nitpicking here); 48 tubes in total

the right-pointing triangle symbol represents 5.5 k-displacing KDX-II (32 cells of Mk 41 VLS, 32 cells of Korean VLS, 8 Korean AShMs); 72 tubes in total

the hexagon symbol represents 7.5 k-displacing Type 052D (64 cells VLS); 64 tubes in total

the star symbols represents 11.0 k-displacing KDX-III (80 cells of Mk 41 VLS, 32 cells of Korean VLS, 16 Korean AShMs); 144 tubes in total

and finally, the pentagon (sorry! LOL) symbol represents 12 k-displacing Type 055 with 112 cells VLS, 112 tubes in total


as you can see below, these ships MORE OR LESS follow the trend of ten tubes per one thousand metric tons of full displacement; they're WARSHIPS
warships5.jpg


Type 45 has a let's say modest value of 54/9.4 which is about 5.7
(Type 052D: 64/7.5 which is about 8.5;
Type 055: 112/12 which is about 9.3)
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
The Sylver VLS and the Aster 15 and 30s definitely limit the Daring class to air defence but in this field it supposedly is second to none, if range of missiles are ignored. Then again as a purpose designed destroyer to fleet defence, Asters have enough range. The RN's doctrine is similar to the USN's - centred around a carrier fighter wing that can perform various missions. Everything else on the surface is to protest those carriers and perform some limited anti-surface roles itself along with a comprehensive anti-sub warfare in combination with airborne assets. So comparing them truly is inappropriate. Personally I think this doctrine is superior to the "Russian" one which is just spamming the ocean with capital ships armed to the teeth lobbing hundreds of anti-ship missiles with subs performing a secondary role to supplement this effort while countering enemy subs.

We have seen PLAN shift towards the US doctrine since it selected the air defence focused Type 052C over the Type 052B and invest heavily in a strong future carrier fleet with the rest of the surface fleet serving as multirole ships but also primarily air defence eventually, when matured CATOBAR carriers come along with the entire air wing they'll carry. For now PLAN is still very much giving 055's multirole status and they clearly want these heavy destroyers to serve both doctrines well. China's always taken what it considers the best from Russian thinking and combined it with American while mixing its own in too. The perks of catch-up position. The matured Type 055 will probably get quad packed medium range SAMs to add to existing repertoire. Maybe a railgun and ballistic missile defence or ASAT missiles similar to SM-3 as well. That's going to be a Kirov + AB III with a railgun.

Don't let the large Russian ASMs fool you. The Kirov and Slava classes are rich in both long range (S-300 RIF M) and close range air defenses. The Kirov class has 96 S-300s, and the Slava class has 64 S-300s. In addition the Kirov has over 100 short range missiles, the Slava class has around 40. The number of antiship missiles on the Kirov class is only about 20, even if they are big, and the Slava class about 16, even if these are big. So these are ships that lean much more to air defense. In role they are comparable to the Type 055, and are intended to escort the planned Russian aircraft carriers. The Soviet ships were quite balanced and multirole, just that the Western ships, antiship development is stunted for budgetary and political reasons. The US did have a developmental project for a supersonic missile called Sea Dragon, something that were hidden all these years until exposed by hackers. The Sovremenny destroyers are also balanced for their air defense and offensive capability, while Udaloys are specialized ASW ships.

The 052B is also a balanced ship, 16 antiship missiles with 40 SAMs. The 052B didn't really disappear into a dead end but rather, morphed into the smaller Type 054A frigate. The Type 054A is a scaled down 052B with less missiles. 052C/D inherits the idea of the Sovremenny's antiship capabilities, with eight large YJ-62 on the C, and an unknown number, possibly 8 to 16 YJ-18 on the D. Along with that, they also inherit the Sovremenny's OTH antiship sensor by copying the Mineral-M system which consists of active radar, passive sensor and CEC into the Type 366 and tweaked improvements on it. This system equips every 054A, 052C, 052D and even the refitted destroyers today. That's plenty of ships that inherited this gene from the Sovremenny.

The lack of "balance" in Western ship designs, i.e. antiship capability, comes not from design or policy, but by budgetary cuts and institutional neglect. Even among European frigates, the ship designs appear to have extra space for adding more antiship missiles but never happened. Now the US is rushing antiship capability pronto, with LRASM and NSM, dual use Tomahawks and even converting SM-6 for dual roles with antiship.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
The 052B is also a balanced ship, 16 antiship missiles with 40 SAMs. The 052B didn't really disappear into a dead end but rather, morphed into the smaller Type 054A frigate. The Type 054A is a scaled down 052B with less missiles. 052C/D inherits the idea of the Sovremenny's antiship capabilities, with eight large YJ-62 on the C, and an unknown number, possibly 8 to 16 YJ-18 on the D. Along with that, they also inherit the Sovremenny's OTH antiship sensor by copying the Mineral-M system which consists of active radar, passive sensor and CEC into the Type 366 and tweaked improvements on it. This system equips every 054A, 052C, 052D and even the refitted destroyers today. That's plenty of ships that inherited this gene from the Sovremenny.

Does the 055 also use a version of the Type 366 (Mineral-ME)? Does the 366/Mineral-ME actually allow for CEC where another ship's missiles could be guided to target? Or is it simply networking radar information like wiki suggests.
 
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