055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[AndrewS]

I think the conception of using just missiles for land attack role is a bit outdated.

The current PLAN vessels are strictly focused towards defense, but the railgun program will be key towards China’s sustained land attack/invasion capability if it decides it needs one.

A stealthy “mini zumwalt” as big as a frigate (054A) or a light destroyer (052D) can carry 24-32ish VLS dedicated to land attack on it’s flanks. It’s main armament would be a single railgun housed in a stealthy turret. For self defense, it would give up a few cruise missiles for a handful of MRSAMs, otherwise having only it’s stealth and HQ-10 launchers to defend.

Such a ship would not be overly expensive due to small size, but it would carry a massive punch, bigger than any 112 VLS fleet destroyer.

In low danger scenario, they can operate independently and muscle out any single foreign navy ship attempting to encroach China. If open war breaks out, they could sail under the protection of red AEGIS vessels and act as main land attack.

I don't see missiles being outdated for land attack.

With the advent of cheap precision strike and reconnaissance, any country can start putting together A2AD zones.
So all militaries are having to increase the ranges of their weapons, which at the moment, means missile range.

I agree that the railgun is really useful to the Chinese military, because of the Taiwan scenario.
But railguns aren't ready yet, plus the projectiles have a much shorter range than anti-ship or land-attack missiles.

 

[AndrewS]

The Type 055 is overbuilt to be a cheap Arsenal ship, with four gas turbines and six 5MW generators.

A notional Chinese Navy arsenal ship (or missile-carrying destroyer) would have to sail into the same high-risk zones as the multi-role Type-55.
So I struggle to see how a Type-55 hull can really be "overbuilt".
Remember it is about stripping out unneeded systems. Mainly the long-range radars and SAM fire-control systems, but other systems as well.

Speed matters in getting into range fast, and then getting out fast.
Range is not an issue, because it's only 1day to cross the 1st Island Chain, and another 2 days to reach the 2nd Island Chain.
So it makes sense to leave the propulsion as-is, so the entire SAG can operate at high-speed.

And yes, six 5MW generators is a lot for a ship without long-range radars, lasers or railguns.
But it is straightforward to remove unneeded generators.
And it is also straightforward to install the generators later if they are needed.

Remember that I'm using the Type-55 hull as an example, but it may be that the smaller Type-52 hull works out better as an arsenal ship / missile-carrying destroyer.

 

[asif iqbal]

Too much endless discussion

 

[Tam]

So what is CEC?

Eventually it is the ability to co-ordinate the entire response to the sensor data eg.
1. What is the optimum position and orientation for each platform in the defence/offensive network
2. Which missiles/guns from which ship/aircraft should be assigned to each target
3. Handing off control of the missiles from a launch platform to the targeting/control platform.

Again, this barely uses any data throughput, because the sensor and data processing all happens locally.

So the additional cost of adding CEC datalinks to a ship is marginal.
The hardware comprises a few computer cabinets and a few AESA datalink receivers/transmitters.
Most of the cost is comprised of software and algorithms.

And again, a fleet wants to spend most of its time under EMCON, and never wants to use its radars or outbound CEC.

It terms of data throughput its way more than that, especially when you see the PLAN's latest datalinks work in C-band, much like the US military, which is reserving C-band for military use. C-band includes the 5GHz wifi you can find your house, and that is also the bandwidth China is using for its 5G.

Somehow, the combined actions of Chinese and US military with regards to data throughput and band selection do not agree with your assessment that that their data use, a superset that includes CEC and many other things, do not require much data throughput.

When Point A and Point B starts communicating, the first thing they do is transmit signals to help find each other, and try to listen to one another. Then a combination of techniques are used (TDOA, FDOA, AOA) similar techniques used with ESM, that are used to find the direction and range of each other, and then on, phase arrays and MIMO antennas begin to direct their beams on each other and so they can communicate exclusively on an encrypted form. Something happens both with your cellphone and wifi on a different scale. In military use they have to communicate over greater distances so there is more power involved.

 

[Tam]

I would agree that Kirov Battlecruisers had a secondary mission to protect carriers and lead battlegroups.
But what is the point of putting in a nuclear reactor with unlimited range, if the other ships are conventionally powered?
It doesn't make any sense, unless you plan on the Battlecruiser operating independently.

The distance from Murmansk to the sea lanes between Europe and the USA is 5000km.

The Slava and Sovremenny only have a range of 5000km-6000km at 18knots, so they are reliant on a slow underway replenishment ship.
So why would you want a nuclear-powered Kirov, if it was going to be tethered to slower ships that need a replenishment ship anyway?

The Kuznetsov carriers and Udaloys are longer-ranged (15000km at 18knots approx).
So they could get to the NATO shipping lanes and back, although they probably would want a replenishment ship to accompany.
Again, why would you want a nuclear-powered Kirov, if it was going to be tethered to slower ships which include a replenishment ship?

In addition, you end up with a group mostly comprised of capital ships (Kuznetsov+Kirov) with only a few Udaloys as ASW escorts.
And a Kirov Battlecruiser is definitely a high-priority target, because its sheer size and armament make it a Capital Ship.

If the Soviet Navy really did plan on using Kirovs with non-nuclear ships - then the decision to make the Kirov nuclear-powered was a big mistake.

You have to realize what the main Soviet Navy doctrine is, and that is to cut off NATO supplies from the US to Europe once a shooting war starts. The Soviet Navy has no reason to travel around the world, they only need to travel around the GUIP gap to the Atlantic to cut off NATO sea routes. Even in peacetime, the sole remaining Kirov doesn't travel far and much of the globe trotting diplomatic and port visitations being done by the Russian Navy are done by Slavas and Udaloys, even to this very minute, where one of them is meeting up with a Type 054A to do exercises with the South African Navy. So the Slava class Marshal Ustinov goes out from its base in Severodvinsk near the Murmansk Peninsula at the Arctic Circle, cruises all the way to South Africa, tells you about the real range of these ships.

You have to look at where most of the Soviet nuclear submarines roam. Right, the Atlantic. They also have the endurance, right?

As for the selection of nuclear energy on board the ship, it may potentially be a mistake, but during an earlier time in Man's history, people are way more fascinated with the promise of nuclear energy than they are today.

Even if you are going to be a lone raider, you do not need nuclear energy for that, given how German raiders are able to travel to the Indian Ocean from the Baltic.

Your logic seems to imply that if you have a nuclear powered capital ship, the escorts need to be nuclear powered just to keep up. You need to not forget every escort ship for a nuclear powered USN carrier are not nuclear powered.

 

[Tam]

Yes, all your points about radars, ESM and horizons is correct, but also irrelevant.

Think about how operations are going to be conducted around the 2nd Island Chain.
Such fleets will be under complete EMCON silence, with all radars and electronics switched off.
So it doesn't matter if the Type-55 has better electronics and radars than a Type-52D or an Arsenal Ship or Missile-Carrying Destroyer.
Anti-ship missiles will be relying on offboard targeting.
And land-attack missiles will be pre-programmed.

So the only time when the superior radars of a Type-55 matters is when they have already been detected and are under attack.
And bluntly speaking, you want a Type-52D to have a larger radar signature in such a scenario.
Because it's better for a cheaper Type-52D to get hit instead of a Type-55.

Actually, its very relevant. But it requires that you change your idea about the Type 055 being a kind of Tico equivalent carrier escort that sticks fairly close to a carrier. Its very design reeks of something else. Something a bit more different.

The use of AESA means frequency and modulation agile radars that can make their signals look more like static. Call it 'stealthy' radars if you want to understand it. That's also why stealth fighters use AESAs. Unlike the 052D, the 055 has all its relevant radars in AESA, except for a tiny navigation radar used for peacetime and should only have a short range, and the lone CIWS radar on top of the Type 1130 which should be far too short ranged anyway to be detected at range (9km, 12 to 15km tops). The 055 can use all its radars and it may not trigger enemy ESM because to those ESMs, the radar signals may look like static or noise, and gets disregarded or filtered out.

Then you also have the ship's physical design which was meant to be stealthy. Probably not as stealthy as the Zumwalt, although that ship has gained some bumps lately to screw its RCS, but better than just about every ship. You get the picture.

The height of its CEC unit and the use of phase arrays means it is meant to cooperate with other ships at longer ranges. I should add that the 002 carrier has this array right at the very top of its mast, right under its Type 382 search radar, and that's from a very tall height, which means extended radio horizon. If 002 CEC's with the 055, it would be at a great distance.

So my hypothesis is that the 055 works more like a stealthy radar picket ship, that works more in the fringes of the battle group, namely the range and radio horizon of its CEC to the carrier's. It would be set some distance away from the main battle group with the carriers, 052C/D, 051B, 054A, and next generation battle frigate with HQ-9. The battle group would be at EMCON, with the sensor feed coming from the 055 or 055s, as well as maritime AEW and search aircraft.

 

[Tam]

A notional Chinese Navy arsenal ship (or missile-carrying destroyer) would have to sail into the same high-risk zones as the multi-role Type-55.
So I struggle to see how a Type-55 hull can really be "overbuilt".
Remember it is about stripping out unneeded systems. Mainly the long-range radars and SAM fire-control systems, but other systems as well.

Speed matters in getting into range fast, and then getting out fast.
Range is not an issue, because it's only 1day to cross the 1st Island Chain, and another 2 days to reach the 2nd Island Chain.
So it makes sense to leave the propulsion as-is, so the entire SAG can operate at high-speed.

And yes, six 5MW generators is a lot for a ship without long-range radars, lasers or railguns.
But it is straightforward to remove unneeded generators.
And it is also straightforward to install the generators later if they are needed.

Remember that I'm using the Type-55 hull as an example, but it may be that the smaller Type-52 hull works out better as an arsenal ship / missile-carrying destroyer.

I see the 055 hull being overbuilt, because you can use something cheaper and simpler.

You want an 80 VLS ship, why not just get the 052D, get rid of the VHF array and use that section for an additional 16 U-VLS.

 

[Xizor]

Umm..Maybe the Chinese wanted a new hull design to accommodate future requirements? Maybe type-055 is the first of their own ABs that would form the bulk of their AEGIS like fleet? If economics and requirements permit, they would have a ship hull that as considerable growth potential, ready to be stretched or shrinked a little bit ?

I don't see the 055 being overbuilt. Assuming the ship doesn't ave any fatal flaws, I think the type-55 is one of the few ship class in the planet that is rightly built. There isn't a destroyer out there that is fully combat equipped and future ready except for the Daring Class of UK.

Very few discussions on the Technical aspects of the ship these days.
Are there any pictures of inside the bridge of type-055 ?
Is there a 'Command Center 'within the ship like that of the Zumwalt ? If not, is there an alternative?
What about Anti- Torpedo torpedoes and torpedoes themselves? Any new news of the hyper-sonic AsBM for the ship? New goodies in the making to stuff the big VLS farm of type-055?
What is the Wuhan Institute of Marine Electric Propulsion upto these days? What about their IEPS systems about which there was some news of progress back in 2013?

 

[Tam]

Umm..Maybe the Chinese wanted a new hull design to accommodate future requirements? Maybe type-055 is the first of their own ABs that would form the bulk of their AEGIS like fleet? If economics and requirements permit, they would have a ship hull that as considerable growth potential, ready to be stretched or shrinked a little bit ?

It is definitely a new type, or at least for the Chinese Navy, a new generation of ship. All previous ships, from the 054 hulls, the 056 hull, the 052C/D hull, they all stem from previous Chinese administrations and the naval leadership that came with them. So they tend to reflect the situation and political ambitions at that time. The 055 is probably the first all new ship design of the Xi Jing Ping era. There is something about it that is more radical, more risk taking, more ambitious than previous Chinese warships. Much more than the technology, its the very attitude. Xi Jing Ping is far more global than previous Chinese leaders in his outlook and with his sense of China in its place in the world. His leadership and values will reflect on the naval leadership that comes to power during his era. That's going to reflect down to the ship compositions and designs as well.

I mentioned the first. If I may speculate, the 054B and the 052E in the future will be the next ships to follow in this new generation started by the 055. These ships will feature much more attention to stealth features and rely heavily on AESAs. I would like to stop using AEGIS as a metaphor for comparison. These are going to be much more like the modern European warships.

Previous generations of warships, they seem more satisfied to get things working and sailing, much less trying to be world beaters. This is now all in the past.

I don't see the 055 being overbuilt. Assuming the ship doesn't ave any fatal flaws, I think the type-55 is one of the few ship class in the planet that is rightly built. There isn't a destroyer out there that is fully combat equipped and future ready except for the Daring Class of UK.

Overbuilt in the context and sake of being a disposable, budget or support destroyer. That is what I should have meant. A 052X type hull would probably be better for this.

Very few discussions on the Technical aspects of the ship these days.
Are there any pictures of inside the bridge of type-055 ?
Is there a 'Command Center 'within the ship like that of the Zumwalt ? If not, is there an alternative?
What about Anti- Torpedo torpedoes and torpedoes themselves? Any new news of the hyper-sonic AsBM for the ship? New goodies in the making to stuff the big VLS farm of type-055?
What is the Wuhan Institute of Marine Electric Propulsion upto these days? What about their IEPS systems about which there was some news of progress back in 2013?

Little information. Just because things are silent doesn't mean something is brewing.

 

[Bhurki]

There isn't a destroyer out there that is fully combat equipped and future ready except for the Daring Class of UK.

Sejong class? Maya class?
Daring has little offensive capabilities with just harpoon has an AShM. They'll probably put NSM going forward. In anti air, Paams is good but its not a BM defender.
Infact, as they're designed, type 26 frigates have much more muscle than type 45 destroyers.