055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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Gloire_bb

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then I definitely could see the Chinese Navy having a role for a couple of dozen 13k ton destroyers maybe near the end of the 2030s, even if the USN does not..
Well, you can share it with us then(no sarcasm).
It'd good way to switch discussion from "we want big ships because we want to/have industry to feed/other"
to "list of tasks -> solution -> necessary force level on station - >necessary force levels overall" way of thought. Not in terms of ships, but in terms of PLAN as a whole.

What 055 realistically gives over 052D?

1.Better seakeeping, probably far better authonomy. It does exist, but to a degree - 7k ton combatant is already within traditional cruiser displacement.
2.Better volumes&command facilities, second helicopter. Unquestionable.
3.Better situational awareness(sensor suite, again second helicopter, etc).
4.Magazine capacity.

Qualitive points here is #2 and #3. Both can't justify same numbers, since neither really scale. #1 and #4 are quantitive, i.e. they're fine, but don't add anything principally new to the table.

Otherwise, both are 1st rank blue water surface combatants with similar capability list.

And if 052D isn't especially troublesome(doubtful) - there is really no worth.


While everyone remembers what US has both CGs(Tico class) and DDGs(Burke series) as blue water combatants - it's worth remembering, what Burkes essentially displaced both FFGs and CGs from construction sequence, and CGs are only upgraded and only due to their command capability. Withoug it, - second helicopter, second gun and several additional rows of VLS tubes are sweet, but financially probably aren't really worth it - pure Burke line would be cheaper to maintain.
(LCS =/= FFG)
 

Lethe

Captain
A second helicopter is also useful for ASW operations, same reason FFG-7 supported two helicopters. The space can also be used to enhance UAV capabilities.

A larger hull with esp. greater power generation capability also provides greater ability to incorporate emergent systems such as railguns and lasers.

"Magazine capacity" is not just about numbers, but about dimensions and ability to accommodate a wide variety of extent and possible future missile types.

Why do better sensor capabilities not scale given datalinks, CEC, and a large number of possible simultaneous deployments and/or over a wide area?

I see 055 as providing a baseline capability for China's 21st century requirements. It will not have "everything" now and not everything is needed now. The point is that future growth requirements can be accommodated with minimal development complications and/or disruption to production because the basic design is fit for purpose. The Burke IIA/Zumwalt/Burke III/Future Surface Combatant train wreck is precisely what 055 is intended to avoid, and that's what's notable about 055: thinking ahead but acting conservatively.
 
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Gloire_bb

Captain
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Because adding second 055 on won't change picture as much as first addition(AA screen integration, CiC) does.

For example, when elderly US AA escorts(Adams, Spruance) were changed by Aegis equipped Burkes - it was huge leap ahead. It was not just new mark 41 instead of leg launchers(Spruances could have it), it was literally boom in all-round target asquisition, tracking&shooting capability.

052C and especially D, on the other hand, really can do all same.
And 64 cells isn't few, honestly.

They are not weak. :)
 

Lethe

Captain
052C and especially D, on the other hand, really can do all same.

052D can do most of what 055 can do now, but could 052E/F do what 055A/B could do?

As above I see China pursuing the same strategy with 055 as USAF is (apparently) pursuing with the B-21. You get the basics right, then evolve as requirements, development times and budgets allow. Rapid iteration is a characteristic of Chinese development in general, and it is a lot easier to iterate from a good baseline: you will have a much easier time developing a Hawk if you start with <generic bird-of-prey> than if you start with a goose or a budgie. The lack of whizbang advancements (not even IEP!) from 052D to the initial 055 units is consistent with this.
 

Iron Man

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Registered Member
Let's remember, the USN already has some 80+ cruisers/destroyers of the 9000 ton to 10,000 ton category and that number of large combatants is one that they are looking to maintain in the coming years, (of course their fleet will also have an expected 36 or so 3000+ ton frigates/LCS). So taking their force structure along with their missions/requirements, means they may not need several dozen 13000 ton class surface combatants in their fleet, because their overall orbat is already so heavily skewed towards the 9000-10,000 ton displacement category to begin with.

For the Chinese Navy, given they are much more frigate heavy (4000 tons) and with the bulk of their destroyer force currently being in the medium displacement weight category (7000-8000 tons), and take that all together with what the Navy's projected future missions and requirements are, then I definitely could see the Chinese Navy having a role for a couple of dozen 13k ton destroyers maybe near the end of the 2030s, even if the USN does not.
I'm not saying the Navy will definitely get 24 or so 055s or that my ~2:~1:~1 ratio will come to pass, but I do think it is just as plausible as other force projections that others have thrown around in the past.
I do not find this to be a convincing argument. A 052E, for example with 80-96 CCL cells, could easily make up for the PLAN's currently lower average ship tonnage compared to the USN, while leaving a distinct role for the 055 instead of as just a larger version of the 052D. But as I said, we don't know the full displacement of the 055 with any degree of certainty. If it is 10,000t or less, my bet is that this is the replacement destroyer and successor for the 052C/D series, and the PLAN will at some point create a new clean sheet design for an actual cruiser-sized ship.

Over-enthusiastic and/or inaccurate it may or may not be, but I think saying someone's posts or motivations underlying their content is "fanboy" is a not a very friendly way of countering their position, and shouldn't be used too casually.

To an outside reader, it suggests that the "fanboy's" position is so ridiculous and not bound by reason and only motivated by emotion/nationalism/naivety that it is not worth a proper counter argument and is only worth being dismissed. Now, while I do think there are times and places for those kind of accusations especially for people making definitively and obviously wild claims, I also think you've been far too generous in your willingness to accuse or suggest other people are being "fanboys" or equivalents of that term.
Fanboism is rife on this forum, and I will call as I see it; you can disagree, but it makes no difference to me. He's going beyond even your optimistic projections for the 055, based on nothing more than rumors of 3 055s being constructed at the same time, and projecting a PLAN ORBAT with a 12-13kt 055 as the PRIMARY large surface combatant when no other navy has such a large ship as its core ship, including the USN.

Standards change over time. China changes over time. Add the two changes together and you get rather significant changes over time.

At 2000 tons China's earliest Type 07 destroyers were only slightly larger than the current Type 056 corvettes. The current Type 054A frigate has a greater displacement than the Type 051 destroyers still in service. The ships, they get bigger mon.

Or we could look at the other clean-sheet destroyer designs of the 21st century:

Zumwalt: 15,000 tons
Leader: est. 18,000 tons
Type 45: 8500 tons (more than a Flight I Burke despite having only two-thirds the missile load! It's almost as if they keep stuffing in capabilities and the ships keep getting bigger -- remarkable).

You can choose to live in the past when ships were smaller and China was just starting to build its first modern warships and dipping its toes in the blue-water arena if you like. I'm off to the future with the world's second largest navy.
Be careful not to confuse your future with the PLAN's future.

First of all I have no idea why you included the Type 45, the most under-weaponized modern destroyer of the 21st century, in your comparison here. Second of all, both the Zumwalt and the Lider series are certainly NOT intended to be the principle large surface combatants for either the USN or the RN. The US certainly didn't have enough money to replace Ticos one-for-one with Zumwalts, which is why there are only 3, and they had to ramp down their expectations into the form of Flight III Arleigh Burkes. To think that the Russians even have enough money to replace Sovs, Slavas, and Udaloys on a one-for-one (or even one-for-two) basis with this monster of a ship is laughable. The much more realistic general replacement destroyer for the Russian Navy is the upcoming Project 21956 destroyer, which happens to have a displacement of.... 9,000t. Curious that you didn't mention this ship. Your examples actually demonstrate quite well the actual likelihood of any navy going with a cruiser-sized ship as its principle large surface combatant.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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I do not find this to be a convincing argument. A 052E, for example with 80-96 CCL cells, could easily make up for the PLAN's currently lower average ship tonnage compared to the USN, while leaving a distinct role for the 055 instead of as just a larger version of the 052D. But as I said, we don't know the full displacement of the 055 with any degree of certainty. If it is 10,000t or less, my bet is that this is the replacement destroyer and successor for the 052C/D series, and the PLAN will at some point create a new clean sheet design for an actual cruiser-sized ship.

But how does any of that invalidate my previous post?
From what I see you're just presenting an alternative force projection (which I do consider to be plausible), but that doesn't do anything to invalidate my alternative force projection in my last post.

It almost seems like you believe that since the USN doesn't have a meaningfully large number of 13k+ ton destroyers making up a large proportion of its orbat, it means the possibility of any other Navy doing so should not be seriously considered?


And for the purposes of discussion about 055 I'm going to continue to go with rumours until new information arises; i.e.: a 12k-13k ton full displacement destroyer/large destroyer/cruiser.



Fanboism is rife on this forum, and I will call as I see it; you can disagree, but it makes no difference to me.

Okay, but I do think that is not very diplomatic.


He's going beyond even your optimistic projections for the 055, based on nothing more than rumors of 3 055s being constructed at the same time, and projecting a PLAN ORBAT with a 12-13kt 055 as the PRIMARY large surface combatant when no other navy has such a large ship as its core ship, including the USN.

To be fair we've had increasing indicators over the last year or so that 055 may be built at multiple shipyards simultaneously and have a larger than previously expected production run. I don't think anyone has put out a serious projection for 055's potential production run that a consensus has been reached on (which is fair, considering the first ship hasn't even been launched)

As for 055 being the primary large surface combatant or core of his Chinese Navy orbat -- actually his future orbat is one of 3000 ton corvettes 6500 ton frigates and 13000 ton destroyers... a quite balanced fleet, I think, but I'll leave the details to him.
 
I'm curious (and apologize if the question was considered off-topic here)
... The much more realistic general replacement destroyer for the Russian Navy is the upcoming Project 21956 destroyer, which happens to have a displacement of.... 9,000t. Curious that you didn't mention this ship. ...
... when would you envision 'a 21956' to be in service with the Russian Navy?

(as far as I know, it's in, let's say, a conceptual phase, and considering the current unavailability of gas turbines, universal VLS etc. ... but you guys seem to talk distant future here :) that's why I'm asking)
here:
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is its evolution, beginning from "pre-2000 period"
(those who don't know Russian may get the impression by just looking at the pictures inside)

if you decided to answer, you might do so in
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/russian-military-news-reports-data-etc.t1545/
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Well, you can share it with us then(no sarcasm).
It'd good way to switch discussion from "we want big ships because we want to/have industry to feed/other"
to "list of tasks -> solution -> necessary force level on station - >necessary force levels overall" way of thought. Not in terms of ships, but in terms of PLAN as a whole.

What 055 realistically gives over 052D?

1.Better seakeeping, probably far better authonomy. It does exist, but to a degree - 7k ton combatant is already within traditional cruiser displacement.
2.Better volumes&command facilities, second helicopter. Unquestionable.
3.Better situational awareness(sensor suite, again second helicopter, etc).
4.Magazine capacity.

Qualitive points here is #2 and #3. Both can't justify same numbers, since neither really scale. #1 and #4 are quantitive, i.e. they're fine, but don't add anything principally new to the table.

Otherwise, both are 1st rank blue water surface combatants with similar capability list.

And if 052D isn't especially troublesome(doubtful) - there is really no worth.

I'll use your points 1-4 as well.

I believe #2 and #3 are indeed qualitative, and #1 and #4 are quantitative -- however that greater "quantitative" difference in terms of autonomy/endurance and magazine capacity also have a quality of its own.

Let's look at them more closely.

#1, i.e.: endurance and autonomy. I think the difference in endurance between a 13k ton ship and a 7k-8k ton ship's endurance should be significantly different. We can say that a 7k ton destroyer is already within "traditional cruiser displacement" but that doesn't change the absolute difference in endurance between a 7k ton and 13k ton ship. In other words, I'm suggesting that a 13k ton ship offers significantly greater endurance than a 7k ton ship and depending on the Navy, said Navy may be willing to pay for this depending on their mission (more on this later).

#4: i.e.: magazine capacity. The difference in VLS cells between the 7k ton 052D and the expected to be 13k ton 055 is going to be anywhere from 64 to 48 extra cells for 055, from the sounds of the rumours. The difference in VLS count of a ship may not seem major; for example one may think that simply having two 052Ds instead of a single 055 may be able to provide similar firepower, and that is true under certain circumstances. However there are also some missions where having a single large and well armed destroyer is more cost effective or efficient than two smaller destroyers and the possibility of needing a replenishment ship to support them. These missions, in my mind, include "armament intensive" missions where a ship may be forced to fire a large number of its VLS but also maintain sufficient reserve to continue operating on station or at least it can be relieved -- cruise missile bombardments are an example of the sort of mission I'm thinking about.

So yes, I agree that both 052D and the 055 are both/will both be very capable blue water surface combatants, and on paper may have a similar list of qualitative capabilities, though of course 055 will feature many qualitative advancements as well in terms of what you described in #2 and #3.
055 will very comfortably slide into the role of CSG air defence command, leading task forces, and acting as the primary shield of any sort of battle group. Due to these roles, I think 055 will definitely have a medium sized production run.
However, I think the 055 by virtue of its size will make it a far superior platform for longer endurance blue water missions as well, and its larger VLS count/armament capacity will make it a superior platform for more intensive fire missions such as cruise missile bombardments. This role in longer endurance/range and more weapons intensive missions is the reason for why I think 055's production run may be meaningfully greater than medium.

One could of course ask -- why not just use two 052Ds instead of a single 055 for a blue water mission/cruise missile bombardment mission? Well, that is a sensible question, and the answer will have to be to look at cost effectiveness. How much will the cost of two 052Ds be, when considering not only the crewing/operating cost for the two destroyers, but also potentially the need for resupply of the ships (which may need to call on an AOR more frequently than an 055), not to mention the total unit cost of the two 052Ds put at risk in that situation... and it all needs to be compared back to having an equivalent 055 do that mission.
That said, having two 052Ds also offers some flexibility; i.e.: they can patrol more waters than a single ship, and they can investigate two things at once whereas a single 055 cannot.

But these are the pretty standard cost/benefit analyses one would look at when considering a smaller number of larger/costlier/more capable/longer range ships vs a larger number of smaller/cheaper/less capable/shorter range ships.
Based on my own projections of what the Chinese Navy's missions and requirements will be in coming decades, based on the consistent rumours that 055 will likely be a 12k-13k ton destroyer/cruiser, and based on my own estimates of how many CSGs, ESGs, the Navy will have and the escort composition of those groups, that is how I eventually reached my 2:1:1 ratio of frigates:medium destroyers:large destroyers, or about 48 frigates, ~24 medium destroyers and ~24 large destroyers.

I can go into more detail about that thought process if you want, but please do remember I'm not saying that this projection is definitely going to occur, or that other projections are not as equally viable.
Also remember that there are obviously lots of ways to critique the way in which any sort of projection was reached, and I'm not intending this to be any sort of watertight argument.

But I do think I have presented a viable force projection, one which has a healthy balance of frigates, medium destroyers and large destroyers for the Navy's future missions, and I don't think it is any more or less realistic than the sort of orbats which have been thrown around by others either.




While everyone remembers what US has both CGs(Tico class) and DDGs(Burke series) as blue water combatants - it's worth remembering, what Burkes essentially displaced both FFGs and CGs from construction sequence, and CGs are only upgraded and only due to their command capability. Withoug it, - second helicopter, second gun and several additional rows of VLS tubes are sweet, but financially probably aren't really worth it - pure Burke line would be cheaper to maintain.
(LCS =/= FFG)


This is a separate discussion that I'll leave to one side.
 

Blitzo

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First of all I have no idea why you included the Type 45, the most under-weaponized modern destroyer of the 21st century, in your comparison here. Second of all, both the Zumwalt and the Lider series are certainly NOT intended to be the principle large surface combatants for either the USN or the RN. The US certainly didn't have enough money to replace Ticos one-for-one with Zumwalts, which is why there are only 3, and they had to ramp down their expectations into the form of Flight III Arleigh Burkes. To think that the Russians even have enough money to replace Sovs, Slavas, and Udaloys on a one-for-one (or even one-for-two) basis with this monster of a ship is laughable. The much more realistic general replacement destroyer for the Russian Navy is the upcoming Project 21956 destroyer, which happens to have a displacement of.... 9,000t. Curious that you didn't mention this ship. Your examples actually demonstrate quite well the actual likelihood of any navy going with a cruiser-sized ship as its principle large surface combatant.

Err I personally think using the Russian Navy's future plans to support either side of the 055 force projection debate is dubious at best, because there is so much uncertainty about what the Russian Navy's actual destroyer plans are and what they can hope to achieve with their shipbuilding industry.

For instance, the recent news over the last few years for the Russian Navy's surface combatant new build destroyers seems to talk exclusively about the Lider class/Pr 23560 including what appears to be some official Russian Naval backing of the project, whereas there is very little to nothing heard about the Pr 21956 which was unveiled back in 2009 as a design has not proceeded beyond that.

Of course, I don't doubt the media is hyping up the Lider class' because it is such a big and exciting ship and makes for good clickbait, and I obviously have doubts as to whether they can build such a ship... but at the same time that doesn't deny that there doesn't seem to have been any movement for the Pr 21956 design in the last few years, suggesting to me that it's not a design or project under any sort of meaningful consideration.


Also, I don't think the Lider is being reported as a replacement for Sovs, Slavas and Udaloys on any sort of one to one basis or as the mainstay of their surface combatant fleet. I've heard they are only looking to build 8-12 depending on the source. I believe a significant part of their future fleet is intended to be made up of the 4500 ton Gorshkov class frigate.
 
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