055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
OK, I think what AndrewS is saying is that for the same amount of money, by producing only 055, you get more bang for you buck; more firepower, less logistics issues, and less ships than if you produce both 055 and 052D. And Wolf is saying that that is not necessarily the smartest strategy. If you had to patrol the entire swath of ocean between the Diaoyu islands all the way down to the Spratly's (dealing with scenarios of varying intensity) for $1 billion, would you prefer to purchase 1 mega ship with 1,200 cannons (upkeep $100 mill per year) or 1,000 ships each with 1 cannon (total upkeep $150 million)? Even if you get better value in terms of firepower and upkeep with the mega ship, you would probably prefer the fleet to it. Of course, it's a very exaggerated situation to have 1 vs. 1,000. Anyway, we're not even sure what the 055 will really be like so let's just see what the PLAN thinks it should do. If the 055 is not just a larger 052D but has unique roles, but the PLAN realizes that a larger 052D based on the 055 hull is a much better deal than the existing 052D, we might see it make an 055 and then another ship that's an upscaled 052D (052E?) based on the 055 hull and discontinue 052D as it is today. But if it does a more in-depth analysis and realizes that smaller 052Ds will ultimately save more money while still getting the job done despite getting less firepower-for-the-buck out of them, then we will see the 052Ds continue to be manufactured in the size we see them today.
 

delft

Brigadier
However, it should be pretty obvious that given the same general hydrodynamic shape, a larger object will always have more water resistance compared to a smaller one.
A correction: when the length of a ship is less than the wavelength of the bow wave, i.e. the ship sails faster than its Froude speed, the resistance might be much higher than that of a larger ship. But that is way over the cruising speed. It is very important for the size of the propulsion plant but less so for the overall fuel consumption which is mostly dependent on the cruise condition.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Let me give you another example.

The Type-37 subchasers are being replaced by the Type-56 corvette which have a displacement over 300% greater.

Yet the crew is only increasing by 11% from 70 to 78. Cost will go up, but it does not scale proportionally.

Well that's hardly a fair comparison, since you are taking a 1960s design and comparing it with one from half a century later.

Unless you want to argue that the 055 represents a bigger revolutionary leap than the Zumwalt class, that's not a really good example.

Another example is that the Type-55 is going with 4 gas turbines instead of the Type-52D arrangement of 2 gas turbines and 2 diesels. This removes one set of engineering skills and maintenance spares, so we should actually see a smaller engineering crew and lower maintenance costs for the Type-55.

Well, lets reserve judgement on specific scenarios until they actually build the thing, since conclusions based on rumours are only as valid as the rumour, which if turns out to be false, renders all conclusions derived from them moot.

These sorts of examples happen all the time when you scale up a ship.

You get greater efficiencies, but the overwhelming general trend is that as you scale a ship up, so does its complement and operating cost.

You also misunderstand what I meant by fuel efficiency. You correct state that:

"Bigger hulls have better water resistant factors, meaning less water resistance per ton of displacement because water resistance does not increase in proportion to displacement."

But when you look at fuel efficiency per ton of displacement, larger hulls are more efficient because water resistance area increases slower than the volume/displacement. And note that a larger hull carries more weapons per ton of displacement and can also hold much more fuel.

So in summary, a larger hull is more efficient when you look at value for money eg. fuel consumed versus the larger number of weapons and the capability of the sensors carried.

I think you might have misunderstood. Fuel efficiency was never in question of the issue, the issue is overall absolute consumption, which again, has the overwhelming trend of increasing along with displacement.

Of course there is a limit where you reach diminishing returns, but there's also no doubt that the Type-52 hull has reached the limits of its displacement and that it has insufficient VLS cells for a balanced multi-mission loadout.

And how have you reached this conclusion that it has insufficient VLS cells?

Remember that if the Chinese navy decides to undertake long-term production of the Type-52D and Type-55 simultaneously, then they don't have the numbers to reach economies of scale AND they will face lazy monopolistic suppliers because there aren't enough ship orders to promote competition.

Don't you see that building more 052Ds will result in greater economies of scale for the type?

As for monopoly and competition, well you may wish to read up on that as you don't seem to fully understand how that works. Competition has no strict connection with how many units are on order, but rather with how many suppliers are fighting for those orders. You can and do have competition between multiple parties over a single thing or order. The only time a monopoly arrises is when there is a single supplier and no real alternatives.

With the 052D already being built at 2 separate yards, and the 055 likely to also follow that trend, there is little risk of suppliers abusing their position to squeeze profits. Especially in the current economic environment and given the very likely case that the PLAN is doing them a solid by buying more ships than it needs and spreading those orders between more yards than is strictly necessary to help the yards weather the downturn.

Any sort of abuse from the yards will see their naval contracts pulled and themselves blacklisted and most likely soon bankrupt, since government orders now account for a very big share of the order books of Chinese yards.

You should note that I've actually done a course module on ship design which looked at the economics, albeit this was many years ago. I don't have the time nor inclination to go into every point I make in excruciating detail, but there are a lot of books and articles that are freely available on this topic if you google.

Well good for you, but I am a trained economist who worked in project management at a major shipyard, so I also know a thing or two about the subject.

I don't like throwing experience and credentials around, so how about we just focus on the merits of the actual subject?

Note that the 20% figure is the absolute increase in Chinese military spending increases, not a 20% year on year growth figure. Also remember that the Navy is planning on the 10+ year timescale.

And that economic growth of 5-7% per year in China means the economy doubles in size in 10-14 years time. Presumably we can also expect to see military spending double as the baseline.

Well, umm, what?

If you are trying to say what I think you are, then you are have some serious misconceptions of how these things are measured and expressed.

Below is a quick table of how these things are calculated and expressed. The formatting is a little screwy but should still be legible.

Y, GDP@7%, GDP @5%, M Budget @7%, Abs@7%, % of GDP, M Budget @5%, Abs @5%, % of GDP
0 1.0000 1.0000 2.0000% 1.0000 0.0200 2.0000% 1.0000 0.0200
1 1.0700 1.0500 2.2000% 1.1000 0.0206 2.2000% 1.1000 0.0210
2 1.1449 1.1025 2.4200% 1.2100 0.0211 2.4200% 1.2100 0.0220
3 1.2250 1.1576 2.6620% 1.3310 0.0217 2.6620% 1.3310 0.0230
4 1.3108 1.2155 2.9282% 1.4641 0.0223 2.9282% 1.4641 0.0241
5 1.4026 1.2763 3.2210% 1.6105 0.0230 3.2210% 1.6105 0.0252
6 1.5007 1.3401 3.5431% 1.7716 0.0236 3.5431% 1.7716 0.0264
7 1.6058 1.4071 3.8974% 1.9487 0.0243 3.8974% 1.9487 0.0277
8 1.7182 1.4775 4.2872% 2.1436 0.0250 4.2872% 2.1436 0.0290
9 1.8385 1.5513 4.7159% 2.3579 0.0257 4.7159% 2.3579 0.0304
10 1.9672 1.6289 5.1875% 2.5937 0.0264 5.1875% 2.5937 0.0318
11 2.1049 1.7103 5.7062% 2.8531 0.0271 5.7062% 2.8531 0.0334
12 2.2522 1.7959 6.2769% 3.1384 0.0279 6.2769% 3.1384 0.0350
13 2.4098 1.8856 6.9045% 3.4523 0.0287 6.9045% 3.4523 0.0366
14 2.5785 1.9799 7.5950% 3.7975 0.0295 7.5950% 3.7975 0.0384
15 2.7590 2.0789 8.3545% 4.1772 0.0303 8.3545% 4.1772 0.0402

With 7% GDP growth, the economy doubles after 11 years, 15 years with 5%.

With 7% GDP growth, and the military budget growing at 10% year on year, at Y11, defence spending would be at 5.71% of GDP, and be 2.85 times as large as year 0 in absolute terms.

With 5% GDP growth and 10% year on year military growth, at Y15, defence spending would be at 8.35% of GDP and have increased to 4.18 times as that of the baseline year 0.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Again, the Type 055 is NOT simply just a larger Type 052D.

I am relatively certain that it is going to have command spaces and battle management spaces for fleet operations and control similar to what a Tico has, and therefore will have additional staff and additional duties in that regard.

One of the biggest issues with the Burke III is that although it is getting an excellent upgrade in terms of radars/sensors...it is not being built with the command spaces to replace the Ticos. That will have to occur with another vessel...some reincarnation of the CGx.

With more engines and power systems, with upgraded/larger sensors, with more processing and command and control, and with the larger systems and more numbers of them...the Type 055 is definitely going to cost more to operate than a Type 052D.

We shall have to see what new automation the PLAN builds into to them to reduce crew...if they do...but there is a point of diminishing returns in that because you still have to fight the ship and have enough personnel to perform critical battle damage repair.

What those exact financial numbers are right now...I do not know. But I believe it is certain that the Type 055 will cost more to build and cost more costly to operate than its smaller, less capable sisters in the Type 052D.

Now, the Type 052D is nonetheless a very capable and state of the art vessel.

I expect that there will be quite a feew more Type 052D/C vessels in the end then there will be Type 055s. You do not need as many command ships like this, and you want to be able to spread your other assets out across units to some extent, which the Type 052D allows for very nicely.

Having said all of that, it is clear to me that between the Large DDGs (CGs IMHO) the DDGs and the FFGs, that the PLAN is going to have a very modern, very capable, a very well balanced fleet and a large one.

They will not be as large as the US Navy overall IMHO, but they will seek to make that combined fleet/numbers, large and capable enough to assure the PRC leadership that they are capable of dealing with a combination of potential allied adversaries if ever called upon.

At least, I believe that will be their overall goal over the next 10-15 years.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Ugh, made a booboo with my military budget as a % of GDP calculations and cannot edit.

Thought that seemed a bit too steep a growth curve.

Below is an updated table for correct military budget as a percentage of GDP calculations.

Y GDP7% GDP5% Abs 7% % of GDP Growth Abs 5% % of GDP Growth
0 1.0000 1.0000 0.0200 2.0000% 1.0000 0.0200 2.000% 1.0000
1 1.0700 1.0500 0.0220 2.0561% 1.1000 0.0220 2.095% 1.1000
2 1.1449 1.1025 0.0242 2.1137% 1.2100 0.0242 2.195% 1.2100
3 1.2250 1.1576 0.0266 2.1730% 1.3310 0.0266 2.300% 1.3310
4 1.3108 1.2155 0.0293 2.2339% 1.4641 0.0293 2.409% 1.4641
5 1.4026 1.2763 0.0322 2.2965% 1.6105 0.0322 2.524% 1.6105
6 1.5007 1.3401 0.0354 2.3609% 1.7716 0.0354 2.644% 1.7716
7 1.6058 1.4071 0.0390 2.4271% 1.9487 0.0390 2.770% 1.9487
8 1.7182 1.4775 0.0429 2.4952% 2.1436 0.0429 2.902% 2.1436
9 1.8385 1.5513 0.0472 2.5651% 2.3579 0.0472 3.040% 2.3579
10 1.9672 1.6289 0.0519 2.6371% 2.5937 0.0519 3.185% 2.5937
11 2.1049 1.7103 0.0571 2.7110% 2.8531 0.0571 3.336% 2.8531
12 2.2522 1.7959 0.0628 2.7870% 3.1384 0.0628 3.495% 3.1384
13 2.4098 1.8856 0.0690 2.8651% 3.4523 0.0690 3.662% 3.4523
14 2.5785 1.9799 0.0759 2.9455% 3.7975 0.0759 3.836% 3.7975
15 2.7590 2.0789 0.0835 3.0281% 4.1772 0.0835 4.019% 4.1772
 

Lethe

Captain
Seems to me that we should place our bets. The difficulty is in crafting the precise statement.

First pass:

That the final 052D/X intended for PLAN* will be commissioned by 1st January 2022**

* i.e. excluding potential exports

** Where commissioning 2 units per year translates to the 12th unit being commissioned in the first half of 2020, plus 18 months leeway to allow for an additional couple of units that may be ordered if there are problems bringing 055 into service.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Seems to me that we should place our bets. The difficulty is in crafting the precise statement.

First pass:

That the final 052D/X intended for PLAN* will be commissioned by 1st January 2022**

* i.e. excluding potential exports

** Where commissioning 2 units per year translates to the 12th unit being commissioned in the first half of 2020, plus 18 months leeway to allow for an additional couple of units that may be ordered if there are problems bringing 055 into service.

Hehe first there's a bet regarding Chinese Navy carriers, then another proposal for destroyer construction... that's funny.

I think the bet could be better framed to relate to the number of final 052Ds that are actually constructed rather than when they are necessarily commissioned or built by.

Something simpler like "no more than 12 052Ds will be built for the Chinese Navy" or something equivalent, instead of having to rejig the terms of the bet to relate to time period and commissioning schedule.
 

Lethe

Captain
Hehe first there's a bet regarding Chinese Navy carriers, then another proposal for destroyer construction... that's funny.

I think the bet could be better framed to relate to the number of final 052Ds that are actually constructed rather than when they are necessarily commissioned or built by.

Something simpler like "no more than 12 052Ds will be built for the Chinese Navy" or something equivalent, instead of having to rejig the terms of the bet to relate to time period and commissioning schedule.

Unfortunately it is not the exact number of 052Ds that is in question.

The two basic positions (stripped of the detailed reasoning that supports them) seem to be:

(a) That 055 is a direct successor to 052D and thus that 052D/x production will cease once 055 is established in service and production.

(b) That, in addition to 055, PLAN has an ongoing requirement for a 'medium' destroyer and hence that 052D/x will remain in production alongside 055 for the foreseeable future.

Even as someone who embraces (a) I would not commit to 12 being the number of 052Ds that will be produced. There could easily be significant delays in bringing 055 into service and, if that were to occur, it would be entirely natural for PLAN to extend production of 052D by one, two, or even more units depending upon the extent of the issues with 055.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Unfortunately it is not the exact number of 052Ds that is in question.

The two basic positions (stripped of the detailed reasoning that supports them) seem to be:

(a) That 055 is a direct successor to 052D and thus that 052D/x production will cease once 055 is established in service and production.

(b) That, in addition to 055, PLAN has an ongoing requirement for a 'medium' destroyer and hence that 052D/x will remain in production alongside 055 for the foreseeable future.

Even as someone who embraces (a) I would not commit to 12 being the number of 052Ds that will be produced. There could easily be significant delays in bringing 055 into service and, if that were to occur, it would be entirely natural for PLAN to extend production of 052D by one, two, or even more units depending upon the extent of the issues with 055.

I see, in that case one alternative is to rephrase the bet to something like "no more than X number of 052Ds (or an immediate successor or improved class to the 052D) will be built for the Chinese Navy within its current production run (with the "current production run" only referring to the continuous production of the present ship class which will almost certainly end by the mid 2020s even if its production does continue alongside the 055 class, and does not refer to any potential replacement medium destroyer class that may or may not be needed by the early 2030s) -- and they will not be built at the same time as the 055 class (beyond the first initial few X numbers of 055s)."

However, the nature of such a bet would have a continuous aspect to it rather than only acategorical one, because a win or loss could be more significant if a significant more number of 052Ds were built (or not built) compared to what the number "X" is settled as.
 

EblisTx

Junior Member
10kt+ --> Type 055
6kt~7kt --> Type 052C/D + Type 052E?
4kt~5kt --> Type 054A + Type 054B?

I think there will be these three levels of combat vessels to air defense support CVBG or amphibious group.



Again, the Type 055 is NOT simply just a larger Type 052D.

I am relatively certain that it is going to have command spaces and battle management spaces for fleet operations and control similar to what a Tico has, and therefore will have additional staff and additional duties in that regard.

One of the biggest issues with the Burke III is that although it is getting an excellent upgrade in terms of radars/sensors...it is not being built with the command spaces to replace the Ticos. That will have to occur with another vessel...some reincarnation of the CGx.

With more engines and power systems, with upgraded/larger sensors, with more processing and command and control, and with the larger systems and more numbers of them...the Type 055 is definitely going to cost more to operate than a Type 052D.

We shall have to see what new automation the PLAN builds into to them to reduce crew...if they do...but there is a point of diminishing returns in that because you still have to fight the ship and have enough personnel to perform critical battle damage repair.

What those exact financial numbers are right now...I do not know. But I believe it is certain that the Type 055 will cost more to build and cost more costly to operate than its smaller, less capable sisters in the Type 052D.

Now, the Type 052D is nonetheless a very capable and state of the art vessel.

I expect that there will be quite a feew more Type 052D/C vessels in the end then there will be Type 055s. You do not need as many command ships like this, and you want to be able to spread your other assets out across units to some extent, which the Type 052D allows for very nicely.

Having said all of that, it is clear to me that between the Large DDGs (CGs IMHO) the DDGs and the FFGs, that the PLAN is going to have a very modern, very capable, a very well balanced fleet and a large one.

They will not be as large as the US Navy overall IMHO, but they will seek to make that combined fleet/numbers, large and capable enough to assure the PRC leadership that they are capable of dealing with a combination of potential allied adversaries if ever called upon.

At least, I believe that will be their overall goal over the next 10-15 years.
 
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