054B/new generation frigate

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
10k limit strikes again...

I'm of the same opinion as @Tam , et. al - They made the ship bigger cos they needed non-weaponry space.

Displacement is to ships what weight is to land vehicles or maximum take-off weight for aircraft. Ships are the intermediate between a land vehicle and an aircraft, they seem to work like land vehicles because water seems to provide stable support but in reality they are constantly "flying" in water.

Displacement is how much weight the ship carries while maintaining equilibrium in water. The confusion comes from the fact that displacement is measured as if it was mass which is a scalar, which both weight and displacement are not (entirely), even though they are measured in scalar (kg) rather than vector (kN) units. That's because it's a simplification of the model where weight/displacement/MTOW are really mass * g. The same thing in orbital dynamics is never treated in this fashion for the very reason.

Water can have different physical properties due to salinity which changes its density and therefore ships with displacement of 1000t in freshwater can technically have, say 1050t displacement in the Baltic Sea, 1100t displacement in the average ocean and 1200t in the Dead Sea.

Displacement is also influenced by hull shape and mass distribution which determine ship stability. Ship stability is more important than mass/weight because ships move in two ways:
  • they move over/in a moving medium which applies dynamic loads to the hull in terms of buoyancy
  • they move within their own structure which applies dynamic loads in terms of rigidity and load-bearing
The ship must both stay above water but be able to not get leakage or loss of stability due to deformation.

Ships are also vessels with dynamic load because as ships go to the sea they are closer to full displacement while when they return to port they are closer to empty displacement. If the ship is deformed at the latter stage it may not remain stable at full displacement once it is fully loaded again and travels in high sea states.

Sea states are another thing - all hulls are designed for specific sea states. Look up what a dynamic model for ship buoyancy looks like. You'd be surprised how unstable these things are when waves grow only a little bit.

The reason why 054B has 7000t has to do with whatever has been done inside the ship above the waterline that likely affected stability more than weight, and required adding more mass as ballast. Increase in displacement is caused by the additional mass at the bottom balancing additional mass at the top. Displacement is all about center of mass and stability.

This is for example why may ships carry ballast near the keel. Broader hull with lower center of gravity will carry greater weight and therefore that ship will have greater displacement. The same hull that has approx. 4000t can be increased to say 8000t or perhaps more simply by concentrating mass within the boundary of geometrically optimal distribution which in a section would look something like a bowl which incidentally is a bowl because it has to be stable while partly resting on a table and partly "floating in air" while mass and momentum is being put inside it. This is why bowl is heavy everywhere but, heaviest at the bottom.

The new radar which is at approx 25m above waterline is heavier than the old radar. AESA has greater mass per element because every element is a transmitter and a receiver and needs individual controller unit. Because of the energy it also needs cooling which usually means some combination of air and liquid cooling to all elements e.g. air cooled array and liquid cooled processing units. Another issue is information transmission - while the computers in CIC may use optic fibre the radar likely does not and latency is an issue, so the shortest possible routing requires cooling close to the array so as not to drag slow cables into more convenient location. And then there's the issue of maintenance and repair access. For example AN/SPY-6 can be fixed from within the ship allowing repairs at sea while engaged in combat. I expect 052D and 055 to be similar. 054B radar as well as say Type 45 radar are not viable for repairs at sea or in combat because the array is difficult to access but that's why 054B is not an air defense ship. It can lose its air radar. A modern AAW ship can't. Ever. For those reasons high performance AESA systems as a functional design element - which is how they are treated in the design process - are significantly heavier than traditional radar like the one on 054A.

Another reason for greater displacement may be simply greater mass of fuel that was not necessary for 054A mission profile due to other limitations. Ship autonomy is always limited by the crew first and foremost. There's no need to waste space for fuel is your crew can't operate efficiently past X day limit. Fuel can be easily replaced. Human resources can't. So as automation and better accommodation are introduced so the autonomy can extend from the usual 30 days for frigates to 45 or 60 or more, provided replenishment at sea. A ship can be designed to maintain indefinite function with sufficient living space and only basic resource replenishment. When autonomy is increased then more fuel is useful for greater speed or longer range.

Another reason is silencing. There are many ways to silence a ship, but one of the most fundamental ones is placing vibrating elements directly onto high density/mass elements to dampen the vibration via momentum conservation.

Think of a heavy hammer hitting the ground vs the anvil. Ground will carry a low "thud" very far signifying a low frequency matter wave while the anvil will barely move producing high "ring". High frequency waves are easily dissipated in any medium so placing noise source on heavy supports will transfer that energy into high frequency noise which is better absorbed in water. And since engines are low inside the hull it also improves stability.

Rafting helps only so much and it has more to do with shifting/spreading the frequency of noise or shielding from random high noise like a breakdown than silencing. Submarines use rafting because more mass means going down, and subs don't have the option of making larger hulls to stay up because of pressure at depth. Surface ships have no such problem. If you need to add mass you add hull because it's the easiest and cheapest solution.

In ship design ultimately everything you do has to fit within the dynamic buoyancy model. If it does it's good. If it doesn't it's bad. This is why ships are designed "inefficiently" in terms of our land-based common sense. The very first thing that every ship designer does is trying to replicate "land" at sea. As I was once told by a naval architect:

the land is flat, the sea is not, and the devil is in the difference


Weapon systems are one of the easiest things to be added provided they don't change stability, and it is fairly difficult to affect a stability of a frigate with tens of tonnes of mass just above waterline and along the main axis of the ship. Weapons are a huge change in FAC and other small ships because they sit at edges of low profile/low draught hulls where tipping over at high speed is very likely. E.g. Tarantuls had absolutely awful stability at low speeds because of twin Termits on each side and radars higher up but at 30+ knots they had excellent stability.

All in all naval warfare is much more about keeping several thousand tonnes of steel with humans in it out at sea which is an extremely hostile environment to all things come of land than it is about shooting missiles and detecting targets. And this is why there's an entire culture developed by people who spend long time at sea. Sea is more dangerous than air. The only thing that kills you in air is the land coming too fast at you. There are many things that can kill you at sea and the further and longer you're at it the more you're exposed to all of them.

I used this image, in higher resolution, for quick reference:

054B vs 054A comparison.jpg

Differences are visible but they mostly affect volume and volume is deceptive. Remember that 1 m3 of steel weighs close to 8 000t and a sphere with radius r=2 has 8 times the volume of a sphere with radius r=1. If the hull can displace 8x the volume of water you can put a lot of additional mass on your ship and that will still be a fraction of the mass of that displaced water.

So why do people think big ships are bad and/or expensive? Because big ships used to be expensive.

In the past all ships had to be built in situ because precision of design and construction was as good as your next slip in measurement. Try to build a 10m fence in your garden and move the angle of the fence one degree and see what happens. Without computers everywhere a mistake anywhere meant all the preparation was in vain because nothing matched. Now with computers as the standard tool we have precise design, precise construction elements, precise modules and precise machinery and quality control and that saves time which is money. Large ships were difficult to build because they required a lot of measurement and correction by humans and thus cost of ship size scaled geometrically. Now cost of size scales arithmetically or sometimes even less than that because if you have to include other design elements like signature reduction, acoustic silencing, future-proofing or serviceability then building a hull that is larger ends up reducing the overall cost of the ship because that volume allows for cheaper solutions in other areas.
 
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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
@MarKoz81 Nice post. You might want to correct the weight of 1m3 of steel.

Are you not aware of the time limit?

This is one of the two reasons why I post here relatively rarely considering that I do still spend some time here, especially in the old posts. This is only my 262nd post in over two years i.e. 1 post every 3 days on average. You do more than 1 per day, and there are some users who reach 7 or 8 per day. And also why I mostly stick to single posts.

This forum does all it can to hamper intelligent discussion. By limiting text size and edit time it tries to be a conversation but it provides no space and time for that conversation to take place as if that was a natural spoken exchange. It tries to be a text medium but it provides no space and time for that medium to be properly expressed in length and structure. It's the worst of both worlds.

When someone writes a large body of text of some complexity it usually comes with changes and those changes cause the text in the mind of the writer to be different from that being written. You don't see the errors until you re-fresh your memory which takes time because it largely depends on how long you work with the text If you work with it for a long time and most of it never undergoes any change but you read it the text will move to longer-term memory portions of your brain. And then the time to re-fresh is longer because you have to sufficiently fill the short-term memory with other things for the text to be read as "new". Otherwise your brain will speed up the process and put images from your memory over the text, because that's how we handle recognition of objects.

That's how "8 000t" stayed there. It's not really an obvious error if you have the entire calculation in your head. It's obvious to you because you read it as new information. And that's just what you noticed. There are more minor errors in the text but I'm out of time.

This is why the limit on post edits here is so low as to be barely functional. 15? 20? 30 minutes? It is only good for major errors but those are better solved by typing another post and deleting the content of the first with a flag for moderators to remove it. If the edit was to be meaningful it should be an hour or two or even 12-24hrs like in some places.

Another reason is the userbase is mostly reddit quality, but unlike reddit userbase it completely lacks the self awareness which reddit mostly had until very recently. Since 2016, and 2020 especially, toxic users, shills and bots essentially took over the website and it is barely useful for discussion and it lacks self-awareness that was a consistent feature before. SDF is more similar to politicized subreddits and most people here don't see it or consider it a problem.

Note that you wrote the post to point out my error but did not provide the correction yourself. Can't judge your intention but I find it as curious as confusing. What's the point of doing that?

Reddit for all its inherent toxicity still usually does that because then the post doesn't get upvotes. Your post received a like even though it's not helpful at all. What exactly is to be "liked" in your post? But I can understand the intention behind that and it's nothing to be proud of.

This is another reason why I don't like to engage here. No matter what you write most of the time the best answer you can hope here is no answer. When people answer it's usually either unhelpful or some type of needless argument that is usually beside the point or a personal opinion or a veiled attack or not even a veiled attack.

And I don't care for likes. They're only an approximate measure of how many read the post which is something that interests me more as it is useful for practicing written form and gives an idea that there are others who appreciate the information and effort. But I don't care for it otherwise because this weird form of illusory gratification is not what I grew up with. It's weird and very unhealthy and probably put there for all the wrong reasons. And because of that it attracts all the wrong people.

I don't have the ability to judge the quality of the entire userbase, or people who read the website without logging in apart from the people who post and react but those are the most active users and they're not very encouraging. In fact I probably wouldn't post at all if I didn't use my posts here as a type of journal for things I put together for myself. Also I do use the information on the website - particularly the archival and old posts - so I feel myself obliged to give back something in return and since I don't care for likes I post the way I do. Information for information. The way it used to be in the distant forgotten past of 15-20 years ago.

But the thing is that the most valuable thing on SDF is the pictures and dates. The least valuable thing are the users. And that's... kind of sad.

I'm a dinosaur of the internet. I remember the time when it was as empty as outer space and you only got information from other people and that meant that the only people that got connected reliably were those interested in sharing what they knew and did it with benevolent intent. I remember the exchanges I had and the unhelpful ones would never last. Those were the times where you could find a "buddy" or a "friend" online. There were problems obviously but the internet of the 90s and early 00s was void of information and full of humanity. Now it is full of information and the humanity is the very thing that's missing. Instead the best you can hope is at best a confusing reaction like the one you did - a "like" and a thoroughly unhelpful comment. When that's the best you can hope on a discussion forum it's probably a sign it's time to move on to greener pastures.

Not really sure why I posted it. Clearing out my conscience I suppose. That's all from me. See you out there.
 
Last edited:

Jason_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Are you not aware of the time limit?

This is one of the two reasons why I post here relatively rarely considering that I do still spend some time here, especially in the old posts. This is only my 262nd post in over two years i.e. 1 post every 3 days on average. You do more than 1 per day, and there are some users who reach 7 or 8 per day. And also why I mostly stick to single posts.

This forum does all it can to hamper intelligent discussion. By limiting text size and edit time it tries to be a conversation but it provides no space and time for that conversation to take place as if that was a natural spoken exchange. It tries to be a text medium but it provides no space and time for that medium to be properly expressed in length and structure. It's the worst of both worlds.

When someone writes a large body of text of some complexity it usually comes with changes and those changes cause the text in the mind of the writer to be different from that being written. You don't see the errors until you re-fresh your memory which takes time because it largely depends on how long you work with the text If you work with it for a long time and most of it never undergoes any change but you read it the text will move to longer-term memory portions of your brain. And then the time to re-fresh is longer because you have to sufficiently fill the short-term memory with other things for the text to be read as "new". Otherwise your brain will speed up the process and put images from your memory over the text, because that's how we handle recognition of objects.

That's how "8 000t" stayed there. It's not really an obvious error if you have the entire calculation in your head. It's obvious to you because you read it as new information. And that's just what you noticed. There are more minor errors in the text but I'm out of time.

This is why the limit on post edits here is so low as to be barely functional. 15? 20? 30 minutes? It is only good for major errors but those are better solved by typing another post and deleting the content of the first with a flag for moderators to remove it. If the edit was to be meaningful it should be an hour or two or even 12-24hrs like in some places.

Another reason is the userbase is mostly reddit quality, but unlike reddit userbase it completely lacks the self awareness which reddit mostly had until very recently. Since 2016, and 2020 especially, toxic users, shills and bots essentially took over the website and it is barely useful for discussion and it lacks self-awareness that was a consistent feature before. SDF is more similar to politicized subreddits and most people here don't see it or consider it a problem.

Note that you wrote the post to point out my error but did not provide the correction yourself. Can't judge your intention but I find it as curious as confusing. What's the point of doing that?

Reddit for all its inherent toxicity still usually does that because then the post doesn't get upvotes. Your post received a like even though it's not helpful at all. What exactly is to be "liked" in your post? But I can understand the intention behind that and it's nothing to be proud of.

This is another reason why I don't like to engage here. No matter what you write most of the time the best answer you can hope here is no answer. When people answer it's usually either unhelpful or some type of needless argument that is usually beside the point or a personal opinion or a veiled attack or not even a veiled attack.

And I don't care for likes. They're only an approximate measure of how many read the post which is something that interests me more as it is useful for practicing written form and gives an idea that there are others who appreciate the information and effort. But I don't care for it otherwise because this weird form of illusory gratification is not what I grew up with. It's weird and very unhealthy and probably put there for all the wrong reasons. And because of that it attracts all the wrong people.

I don't have the ability to judge the quality of the entire userbase, or people who read the website without logging in apart from the people who post and react but those are the most active users and they're not very encouraging. In fact I probably wouldn't post at all if I didn't use my posts here as a type of journal for things I put together for myself. Also I do use the information on the website - particularly the archival and old posts - so I feel myself obliged to give back something in return and since I don't care for likes I post the way I do. Information for information. The way it used to be in the distant forgotten past of 15-20 years ago.

But the thing is that the most valuable thing on SDF is the pictures and dates. The least valuable thing are the users. And that's... kind of sad.

I'm a dinosaur of the internet. I remember the time when it was as empty as outer space and you only got information from other people and that meant that the only people that got connected reliably were those interested in sharing what they knew and did it with benevolent intent. I remember the exchanges I had and the unhelpful ones would never last. Those were the times where you could find a "buddy" or a "friend" online. There were problems obviously but the internet of the 90s and early 00s was void of information and full of humanity. Now it is full of information and the humanity is the very thing that's missing. Instead the best you can hope is at best a confusing reaction like the one you did - a "like" and a thoroughly unhelpful comment. When that's the best you can hope on a discussion forum it's probably a sign it's time to move on to greener pastures.

Not really sure why I posted it. Clearing out my conscience I suppose. That's all from me. See you out there.
Seek professional help. Learn how to have a normal conversation.
 

yeetmyboi

New Member
Registered Member
Are you not aware of the time limit?

This is one of the two reasons why I post here relatively rarely considering that I do still spend some time here, especially in the old posts. This is only my 262nd post in over two years i.e. 1 post every 3 days on average. You do more than 1 per day, and there are some users who reach 7 or 8 per day. And also why I mostly stick to single posts.

This forum does all it can to hamper intelligent discussion. By limiting text size and edit time it tries to be a conversation but it provides no space and time for that conversation to take place as if that was a natural spoken exchange. It tries to be a text medium but it provides no space and time for that medium to be properly expressed in length and structure. It's the worst of both worlds.

When someone writes a large body of text of some complexity it usually comes with changes and those changes cause the text in the mind of the writer to be different from that being written. You don't see the errors until you re-fresh your memory which takes time because it largely depends on how long you work with the text If you work with it for a long time and most of it never undergoes any change but you read it the text will move to longer-term memory portions of your brain. And then the time to re-fresh is longer because you have to sufficiently fill the short-term memory with other things for the text to be read as "new". Otherwise your brain will speed up the process and put images from your memory over the text, because that's how we handle recognition of objects.

That's how "8 000t" stayed there. It's not really an obvious error if you have the entire calculation in your head. It's obvious to you because you read it as new information. And that's just what you noticed. There are more minor errors in the text but I'm out of time.

This is why the limit on post edits here is so low as to be barely functional. 15? 20? 30 minutes? It is only good for major errors but those are better solved by typing another post and deleting the content of the first with a flag for moderators to remove it. If the edit was to be meaningful it should be an hour or two or even 12-24hrs like in some places.

Another reason is the userbase is mostly reddit quality, but unlike reddit userbase it completely lacks the self awareness which reddit mostly had until very recently. Since 2016, and 2020 especially, toxic users, shills and bots essentially took over the website and it is barely useful for discussion and it lacks self-awareness that was a consistent feature before. SDF is more similar to politicized subreddits and most people here don't see it or consider it a problem.

Note that you wrote the post to point out my error but did not provide the correction yourself. Can't judge your intention but I find it as curious as confusing. What's the point of doing that?

Reddit for all its inherent toxicity still usually does that because then the post doesn't get upvotes. Your post received a like even though it's not helpful at all. What exactly is to be "liked" in your post? But I can understand the intention behind that and it's nothing to be proud of.

This is another reason why I don't like to engage here. No matter what you write most of the time the best answer you can hope here is no answer. When people answer it's usually either unhelpful or some type of needless argument that is usually beside the point or a personal opinion or a veiled attack or not even a veiled attack.

And I don't care for likes. They're only an approximate measure of how many read the post which is something that interests me more as it is useful for practicing written form and gives an idea that there are others who appreciate the information and effort. But I don't care for it otherwise because this weird form of illusory gratification is not what I grew up with. It's weird and very unhealthy and probably put there for all the wrong reasons. And because of that it attracts all the wrong people.

I don't have the ability to judge the quality of the entire userbase, or people who read the website without logging in apart from the people who post and react but those are the most active users and they're not very encouraging. In fact I probably wouldn't post at all if I didn't use my posts here as a type of journal for things I put together for myself. Also I do use the information on the website - particularly the archival and old posts - so I feel myself obliged to give back something in return and since I don't care for likes I post the way I do. Information for information. The way it used to be in the distant forgotten past of 15-20 years ago.

But the thing is that the most valuable thing on SDF is the pictures and dates. The least valuable thing are the users. And that's... kind of sad.

I'm a dinosaur of the internet. I remember the time when it was as empty as outer space and you only got information from other people and that meant that the only people that got connected reliably were those interested in sharing what they knew and did it with benevolent intent. I remember the exchanges I had and the unhelpful ones would never last. Those were the times where you could find a "buddy" or a "friend" online. There were problems obviously but the internet of the 90s and early 00s was void of information and full of humanity. Now it is full of information and the humanity is the very thing that's missing. Instead the best you can hope is at best a confusing reaction like the one you did - a "like" and a thoroughly unhelpful comment. When that's the best you can hope on a discussion forum it's probably a sign it's time to move on to greener pastures.

Not really sure why I posted it. Clearing out my conscience I suppose. That's all from me. See you out there.
lmao.

If you were an Aussie I'd have made an "average lol" joke. Having conversed with many of them before.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
If you really think about that.
The PLAN doesn't have any sort of exposed illuminator radar on their new vessels like 052D, 055 and 054B
I'm not even sure that the Type 055 use a dedicated illuminator as its X-band radar can also provides fire control ( Zumwalt dual band?) intergrated into the mast.
Presumably the 054B's tiny underside radar can act as a secondary illuminator with the large rotating one a volumetric search/track radar? But that would compromise the sensors operation as the dual band radars, as we know are built as one unit. So the illum radar would be limited in arc.
Probably the sensors arent fit for now? I could not imagine developing and fielding an entirely new HHQ-16 variant when there're so many legacy versions in stock out there that could not be used.
Or legacy HHQ-16s are updated with seekers that permitted ICWI technique. So the FCR can time-share illuminating works.

The X-band on the Type 055 is not used on terminal illumination. It is used for surface scanning providing advanced warning of sea skimming anti ship missiles as they fly through the radar horizon, queues the ship's defenses at them and provides fire control of the gun and antiship missiles for targets within the radar horizon. I would assume at such close ranges the HQ-9s are used directly at ship targets instead of the YJ-18. In other words, the X-band radar replaces the Type 364, Type 344 and Type 366 radars used on the 052C/D. These radars are absent on the 055 and work on the C (Type 364) and X band range with these purposes.

The 'underside radar' on the 054B is not radar at all but a CEC or Cooperative Engagement Capability communication array that allows all ship's with this to share radar information across all ships in a network in real time. Kudos for the USN pioneering this and they have similar shaped and sized arrays at the masts of Arleigh Burke destroyers upgraded to the Baseline 9 package. Also with other NATO ships using AEGIS system. You also find these arrays in similar size in the Type 055 integrated mast, just right above the X-band radars. Then you find these arrays in the Liaoning as a retrofit, on the Shandong, on the Fujian, and on the Type 075, which clearly says they are not for missile use. What it means is that the radar data among ships sharing the same network can be used to guide missiles fired from another ship.

This means for example, an 054B escorting the Fujian can tap the carrier's radars, giving a much greater sensory picture. It can mean that the entire fleet can go radar quiet while using a single ship going ahead to provide radar information. It can mean that a 054B might be able to provide targeting information to an 055 some distance away, and the 055 can utilize the 054B radars to strike a target below the 055's radar horizon.

SAST, the development institute for the HQ-16, has also shown an iCWI illuminator for the HQ-16. Heck it's on their website. But this is likely for the AESA illuminators on the last batch of 054A which isn't found now on the 054B. I thought these illuminators would be added on the 054B but I do not find them. The ICW seekers should also be for the land based HQ-16 system and an AESA panel is on the HQ-16 land radar system.

The nature of AESA modules and how they operate only permits the creation of ICW instead of continuous wave, hence ICW is straight out required for AESA based illuminators.

While similarly small, however the AESA illuminator should have more bulk behind the array which indicates components for higher power output than a communication array which is relatively thin. I do not think such an illuminator array would be hanging under a radar due to its gyroscopic stresses when the entire mass is rotated at speed. Hence the location for an AESA illuminator needs to be stationary and provides adequate frame support for it's added weight.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I think there is possibility. It looks like a black raised platform probably covered by a tarp. Also there are what look frames for ASHM slant canisters on either side of the raised platform.

Amidship:
View attachment 119075


VLS in bow:
View attachment 119074

I don't think that is a raised platform, but rather it is the interior side of the starboard raised hull side wall (i.e.: painted grey on the outside).

Now, that isn't to say there may not be a raised platform which is out of sight, but the thing you and others are referring to as a raised platform I think is just the opposite wall.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Are you not aware of the time limit?

This is one of the two reasons why I post here relatively rarely considering that I do still spend some time here, especially in the old posts. This is only my 262nd post in over two years i.e. 1 post every 3 days on average. You do more than 1 per day, and there are some users who reach 7 or 8 per day. And also why I mostly stick to single posts.

This forum does all it can to hamper intelligent discussion. By limiting text size and edit time it tries to be a conversation but it provides no space and time for that conversation to take place as if that was a natural spoken exchange. It tries to be a text medium but it provides no space and time for that medium to be properly expressed in length and structure. It's the worst of both worlds.

When someone writes a large body of text of some complexity it usually comes with changes and those changes cause the text in the mind of the writer to be different from that being written. You don't see the errors until you re-fresh your memory which takes time because it largely depends on how long you work with the text If you work with it for a long time and most of it never undergoes any change but you read it the text will move to longer-term memory portions of your brain. And then the time to re-fresh is longer because you have to sufficiently fill the short-term memory with other things for the text to be read as "new". Otherwise your brain will speed up the process and put images from your memory over the text, because that's how we handle recognition of objects.

That's how "8 000t" stayed there. It's not really an obvious error if you have the entire calculation in your head. It's obvious to you because you read it as new information. And that's just what you noticed. There are more minor errors in the text but I'm out of time.

This is why the limit on post edits here is so low as to be barely functional. 15? 20? 30 minutes? It is only good for major errors but those are better solved by typing another post and deleting the content of the first with a flag for moderators to remove it. If the edit was to be meaningful it should be an hour or two or even 12-24hrs like in some places.

Another reason is the userbase is mostly reddit quality, but unlike reddit userbase it completely lacks the self awareness which reddit mostly had until very recently. Since 2016, and 2020 especially, toxic users, shills and bots essentially took over the website and it is barely useful for discussion and it lacks self-awareness that was a consistent feature before. SDF is more similar to politicized subreddits and most people here don't see it or consider it a problem.

Note that you wrote the post to point out my error but did not provide the correction yourself. Can't judge your intention but I find it as curious as confusing. What's the point of doing that?

Reddit for all its inherent toxicity still usually does that because then the post doesn't get upvotes. Your post received a like even though it's not helpful at all. What exactly is to be "liked" in your post? But I can understand the intention behind that and it's nothing to be proud of.

This is another reason why I don't like to engage here. No matter what you write most of the time the best answer you can hope here is no answer. When people answer it's usually either unhelpful or some type of needless argument that is usually beside the point or a personal opinion or a veiled attack or not even a veiled attack.

And I don't care for likes. They're only an approximate measure of how many read the post which is something that interests me more as it is useful for practicing written form and gives an idea that there are others who appreciate the information and effort. But I don't care for it otherwise because this weird form of illusory gratification is not what I grew up with. It's weird and very unhealthy and probably put there for all the wrong reasons. And because of that it attracts all the wrong people.

I don't have the ability to judge the quality of the entire userbase, or people who read the website without logging in apart from the people who post and react but those are the most active users and they're not very encouraging. In fact I probably wouldn't post at all if I didn't use my posts here as a type of journal for things I put together for myself. Also I do use the information on the website - particularly the archival and old posts - so I feel myself obliged to give back something in return and since I don't care for likes I post the way I do. Information for information. The way it used to be in the distant forgotten past of 15-20 years ago.

But the thing is that the most valuable thing on SDF is the pictures and dates. The least valuable thing are the users. And that's... kind of sad.

I'm a dinosaur of the internet. I remember the time when it was as empty as outer space and you only got information from other people and that meant that the only people that got connected reliably were those interested in sharing what they knew and did it with benevolent intent. I remember the exchanges I had and the unhelpful ones would never last. Those were the times where you could find a "buddy" or a "friend" online. There were problems obviously but the internet of the 90s and early 00s was void of information and full of humanity. Now it is full of information and the humanity is the very thing that's missing. Instead the best you can hope is at best a confusing reaction like the one you did - a "like" and a thoroughly unhelpful comment. When that's the best you can hope on a discussion forum it's probably a sign it's time to move on to greener pastures.

Not really sure why I posted it. Clearing out my conscience I suppose. That's all from me. See you out there.
I was making a helpful remark: you still had 10 minutes left to make the edit when I posted it. I liked your post and congratulated it. There was no ulterior motive. Keep up the good work.
 

Jiang ZeminFanboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
10k limit strikes again...



Displacement is to ships what weight is to land vehicles or maximum take-off weight for aircraft. Ships are the intermediate between a land vehicle and an aircraft, they seem to work like land vehicles because water seems to provide stable support but in reality they are constantly "flying" in water.

Displacement is how much weight the ship carries while maintaining equilibrium in water. The confusion comes from the fact that displacement is measured as if it was mass which is a scalar, which both weight and displacement are not (entirely), even though they are measured in scalar (kg) rather than vector (kN) units. That's because it's a simplification of the model where weight/displacement/MTOW are really mass * g. The same thing in orbital dynamics is never treated in this fashion for the very reason.

Water can have different physical properties due to salinity which changes its density and therefore ships with displacement of 1000t in freshwater can technically have, say 1050t displacement in the Baltic Sea, 1100t displacement in the average ocean and 1200t in the Dead Sea.

Displacement is also influenced by hull shape and mass distribution which determine ship stability. Ship stability is more important than mass/weight because ships move in two ways:
  • they move over/in a moving medium which applies dynamic loads to the hull in terms of buoyancy
  • they move within their own structure which applies dynamic loads in terms of rigidity and load-bearing
The ship must both stay above water but be able to not get leakage or loss of stability due to deformation.

Ships are also vessels with dynamic load because as ships go to the sea they are closer to full displacement while when they return to port they are closer to empty displacement. If the ship is deformed at the latter stage it may not remain stable at full displacement once it is fully loaded again and travels in high sea states.

Sea states are another thing - all hulls are designed for specific sea states. Look up what a dynamic model for ship buoyancy looks like. You'd be surprised how unstable these things are when waves grow only a little bit.

The reason why 054B has 7000t has to do with whatever has been done inside the ship above the waterline that likely affected stability more than weight, and required adding more mass as ballast. Increase in displacement is caused by the additional mass at the bottom balancing additional mass at the top. Displacement is all about center of mass and stability.

This is for example why may ships carry ballast near the keel. Broader hull with lower center of gravity will carry greater weight and therefore that ship will have greater displacement. The same hull that has approx. 4000t can be increased to say 8000t or perhaps more simply by concentrating mass within the boundary of geometrically optimal distribution which in a section would look something like a bowl which incidentally is a bowl because it has to be stable while partly resting on a table and partly "floating in air" while mass and momentum is being put inside it. This is why bowl is heavy everywhere but, heaviest at the bottom.

The new radar which is at approx 25m above waterline is heavier than the old radar. AESA has greater mass per element because every element is a transmitter and a receiver and needs individual controller unit. Because of the energy it also needs cooling which usually means some combination of air and liquid cooling to all elements e.g. air cooled array and liquid cooled processing units. Another issue is information transmission - while the computers in CIC may use optic fibre the radar likely does not and latency is an issue, so the shortest possible routing requires cooling close to the array so as not to drag slow cables into more convenient location. And then there's the issue of maintenance and repair access. For example AN/SPY-6 can be fixed from within the ship allowing repairs at sea while engaged in combat. I expect 052D and 055 to be similar. 054B radar as well as say Type 45 radar are not viable for repairs at sea or in combat because the array is difficult to access but that's why 054B is not an air defense ship. It can lose its air radar. A modern AAW ship can't. Ever. For those reasons high performance AESA systems as a functional design element - which is how they are treated in the design process - are significantly heavier than traditional radar like the one on 054A.

Another reason for greater displacement may be simply greater mass of fuel that was not necessary for 054A mission profile due to other limitations. Ship autonomy is always limited by the crew first and foremost. There's no need to waste space for fuel is your crew can't operate efficiently past X day limit. Fuel can be easily replaced. Human resources can't. So as automation and better accommodation are introduced so the autonomy can extend from the usual 30 days for frigates to 45 or 60 or more, provided replenishment at sea. A ship can be designed to maintain indefinite function with sufficient living space and only basic resource replenishment. When autonomy is increased then more fuel is useful for greater speed or longer range.

Another reason is silencing. There are many ways to silence a ship, but one of the most fundamental ones is placing vibrating elements directly onto high density/mass elements to dampen the vibration via momentum conservation.

Think of a heavy hammer hitting the ground vs the anvil. Ground will carry a low "thud" very far signifying a low frequency matter wave while the anvil will barely move producing high "ring". High frequency waves are easily dissipated in any medium so placing noise source on heavy supports will transfer that energy into high frequency noise which is better absorbed in water. And since engines are low inside the hull it also improves stability.

Rafting helps only so much and it has more to do with shifting/spreading the frequency of noise or shielding from random high noise like a breakdown than silencing. Submarines use rafting because more mass means going down, and subs don't have the option of making larger hulls to stay up because of pressure at depth. Surface ships have no such problem. If you need to add mass you add hull because it's the easiest and cheapest solution.

In ship design ultimately everything you do has to fit within the dynamic buoyancy model. If it does it's good. If it doesn't it's bad. This is why ships are designed "inefficiently" in terms of our land-based common sense. The very first thing that every ship designer does is trying to replicate "land" at sea. As I was once told by a naval architect:




Weapon systems are one of the easiest things to be added provided they don't change stability, and it is fairly difficult to affect a stability of a frigate with tens of tonnes of mass just above waterline and along the main axis of the ship. Weapons are a huge change in FAC and other small ships because they sit at edges of low profile/low draught hulls where tipping over at high speed is very likely. E.g. Tarantuls had absolutely awful stability at low speeds because of twin Termits on each side and radars higher up but at 30+ knots they had excellent stability.

All in all naval warfare is much more about keeping several thousand tonnes of steel with humans in it out at sea which is an extremely hostile environment to all things come of land than it is about shooting missiles and detecting targets. And this is why there's an entire culture developed by people who spend long time at sea. Sea is more dangerous than air. The only thing that kills you in air is the land coming too fast at you. There are many things that can kill you at sea and the further and longer you're at it the more you're exposed to all of them.

I used this image, in higher resolution, for quick reference:

View attachment 119114

Differences are visible but they mostly affect volume and volume is deceptive. Remember that 1 m3 of steel weighs close to 8 000t and a sphere with radius r=2 has 8 times the volume of a sphere with radius r=1. If the hull can displace 8x the volume of water you can put a lot of additional mass on your ship and that will still be a fraction of the mass of that displaced water.

So why do people think big ships are bad and/or expensive? Because big ships used to be expensive.

In the past all ships had to be built in situ because precision of design and construction was as good as your next slip in measurement. Try to build a 10m fence in your garden and move the angle of the fence one degree and see what happens. Without computers everywhere a mistake anywhere meant all the preparation was in vain because nothing matched. Now with computers as the standard tool we have precise design, precise construction elements, precise modules and precise machinery and quality control and that saves time which is money. Large ships were difficult to build because they required a lot of measurement and correction by humans and thus cost of ship size scaled geometrically. Now cost of size scales arithmetically or sometimes even less than that because if you have to include other design elements like signature reduction, acoustic silencing, future-proofing or serviceability then building a hull that is larger ends up reducing the overall cost of the ship because that volume allows for cheaper solutions in other areas.
054B and 054A scaled by Horobeyo. This is better comparison than your photo

 
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