054B/new generation frigate

Lethe

Captain
Growth of frigates are inevitable just as you are already seeing 7,000, 8,000 ton frigates in some nations, even 10,000 if Germany wants to call the MKS-180 as a frigate. The mission, specs and power creep are inevitable as the course of naval evolution.

Australia's future Hunter-class frigate is also expected to have a full-load displacement in excess of 10,000 tons. Of course this project
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to have been about as well conceived as our future submarine program...

If 054B has a full-load displacement of only 5000 tons it would be among the smallest of modern fully-fledged (helo+MRSAM+towed sonar) frigates.
 
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lcloo

Captain
Australia's future Hunter-class frigate is also expected to have a full-load displacement in excess of 10,000 tons.

A 5000-ton 054B would make it amongst the smallest of modern fully-fledged (helo+MRSAM+towed sonar) frigate designs.
A$3.9 billion or US$ 2.88 billion for a frigate, and that is at 2018 price..... 2022 global inflation will add more costs to the project.
 

sndef888

Captain
Registered Member
I don't think the PLA should build larger frigates just because european navies are doing it. The two have very different geographies and economics. Europeans need larger frigates because their "enemies" are far off, but they can't build destroyers because they don't have the money

The PLA faces mostly nearby threats in the SCS and ECS. A 5000+ ton frigate is probably the ideal size for an asw frigate. For far off missions the PLA can afford using 052Ds and 055s.

Though I think the 052D should be slowly replaced by a 052E more optimised for long journeys. Afaik the 052D is at the limits of the hull and is rumoured to be poor in seaworthiness due to excessive length
 

Lethe

Captain
I don't think the PLA should build larger frigates just because european navies are doing it. The two have very different geographies and economics [....]
The PLA faces mostly nearby threats in the SCS and ECS. A 5000+ ton frigate is probably the ideal size for an asw frigate. For far off missions the PLA can afford using 052Ds and 055s.

Japan's Akizuki/Asahi-class and new Mogami-class frigates seem an admirable and appropriate standard by which to measure China's future frigate.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
I personally expect something remotely similar to Aquitaine.
Maybe initially distributed as sort of 054A leaders, not as a direct replacement (at least not initially).
 

weig2000

Captain
Just want to point out that it's not very helpful to compare future Chinese frigates with European frigates on a ship by ship basis. For most European countries, frigates are their primary surface combatant and function largely both as destroyer and frigate. But China has a multi-tier surface combatant structure and therefore can afford some specialization. The other big difference is that China produces each class of these primary surface combatants in much larger quantity.

So if you really want to compare, bring in the context of mission, system of systems and scale, on top of the individual ship capabilities.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Ok, sounds reasonable.

Then I'll add some medium/high altitude threats and some of my own thoughts. Not forcing my conclusions on you, of course, this matter will obviously depend on personal opinion.

~10-25 km - bomb release high altitude drop, drone light weapons, and everything that pops up from below the horizon;
~25-40 km - average for tactical missiles and unpowered gliding weapons with low aspect wing;
~80-90 - unpowered gliding weapons from high altitude drop (against moving target);
~100-140 - boosted gliding weapons from high altitude drop (against moving target); aerial gliding mines; modern ARMs.
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After that - currently produced air-launched light ASCMs and next-generation ARMs tend to be over 200(not all of them).
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Heavy air-launched ASCMs (both subsonic and supersonic) now aim for ~500 and more (their flight range in Lo-Lo-Lo is significantly shorter)

Long story:
Minimum self- and formation defense(not CIWS): 20-25 km(and ~12-15 altitude) is just necessary, anything less and you'll get bombed.
Optimal Max engagement range (non-AA combatant) still looks like 150-160 km to me. It deters most types of non-determined saturation attacks against the combatant, and allows a reasonable degree of coverage for dispersed TF.
Air defense combatants: should aim at 300 at least, but the opportunity to take even longer-ranged shots against oblivious targets may be of value. Furthermore, as per onbservations, it takes both size of the missiles and their number, especially when we're trying to protect friendly positioned away from the shooter.

Problems: the outer edge of engagement is a very slippery zone, as even for the fastest naval AA missiles it takes many minutes to get there, so there is ample opportunity for a target to react. Just as (or more) valuable are maximum ranges of direct launch(w/o loft) with given Probability of kill(Pk), as well as minimum engagement ranges, time to engage, and Pk at minimum engagement ranges.

Those are reasonable threat profiles.
For the 10-25km and 25-40km category, I think those would best be serviced by the quad packed SR SAM.

For everything else, I think the goal would be to have a LR SAM be capable of "shooting the archer" -- i.e.: to shoot down the aircraft launching it.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
With a displacement of 5000+ tons, 054B would have some more flexibility to be equipped with some high-end AAW capabilities, compared with 054A. But it's important to carefully think through its missions before we "give" it a lot of capabilities.

To me, the most important mission for 054B should be the blue-water ASW, presumably within a CBG; a secondary mission would be a general-purpose frigate with blue-water capability (e.g., endurance) that may engage in conflicts of relatively low to medium level intensity not involving CBG.

For the blue-water ASW mission, 054B doesn't need long-range AAW missiles which should be handled by 052D and/or 055. Instead, it should be optimized for ASW. Ideally, I would have dual helicopters in addition to the full suite of ASW sonars/sensors/missiles/rockets. For AAW, I would have all quad-packed medium ranges missiles for self defense and participating in the medium range of fleet defense against saturation attacks. There need clear distinction and division of labor between 054B and 052D/055 in this mission.

For general-purpose blue-water mission, it makes sense to equip 054B with some (limited, mostly by sensor) capability of relatively long-range AAW missiles, either under the guidance of its own sensors or through CEC with other ships (052D/055/075). In this case, you would have a different VLS loadout and probably don't need two helicopters.

So ideally 054B should be able to be configured and equipped to handle the above two different missions.

I agree with your description of the role for 054B -- capable of doing blue water CSG escort (emphasizing ASW and medium range AAW), but also blue water general purpose frigate duties that can operate in low to medium intensity conflicts either by itself or with coordination of some small degree of support from friendly surface units. The latter mission I believe will necessitate a degree of credible LR SAM capability, but it does not need to be as capable as 052D or 055 in that regard.

IMO, there are two differentiating aspects between 052D/055 from 054B in terms of their capability to independently carry out "LR SAM engagements":
1. 052D/055 will be capable of carrying out "VLR SAM engagements" (up to 400km range) while 054B is "limited" to "LR SAM engagements" (200km range category)
2. For "LR SAM engagements" (200km range), the 052D and 055 will be capable of handling greater simultaneous targets from a multi axis attack, than what 054B can manage.

In terms of the effects of 1. and 2. on radar selection -- No.1 will determine the size of the primary radar on 054B, and No. 2 will determine the configuration of the radar.


Personally, I think the twin face S band AESA that we saw on test ship 892 (and which is 99% going to end up on 054B) is a perfect fit for the role described above.
892 2.jpg892 1.jpg

Assuming it is indeed a modern AESA, the arrays on the dual face are each about the size of the larger array on Sea Eagle -- this picture of an 054A alongside an 052D would be a nice indication of just how big the new twin face AESA would be compared to 052D's 346A.
It won't be small -- each array may even have about 2/3rds of the individual array size of 346A..

891.jpg054a 052d.jpg



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Basically, when you are choosing a radar configuration for a ship, there are only so many ways you can configure it in the confines of a given hull.
Various factors will have to be prioritized over another, such as weight, cost, range, 360 degree coverage/refresh rate, horizon range etc.

For a nation like China, operating a large fleet of destroyers with large array four fixed face AESAs, it is reasonable to expect that a frigate class would have a less capable and less costly AESA/sensor set up than the destroyers. However, you still want a capable platform.

In the case of 054B's radar, it appears that they've taken a route similar to the SAMPSON radar, and prioritized these tradeoffs:
- two medium sized array faces: there were basically only three options available to them for choosing a radar configuration to achieve 360 coverage, either four fixed faces where each array was individually quite small, or choose three fixed faces with small-medium sized arrays (similar to Constellation class), or choose two faces on a fast rotating mount (like SAMPSON). Each of those options offers their own pros and cons, but it seems like by choosing a medium sized array, there was a threshold of maximum performance per array that they were not willing to compromise on, and accepted instead that a fast rotating twin face solution would be sufficient for their needs. In essence, they are trading greater radar range/resolution for slightly decreased ability to handle complex multi-axis saturation attacks independently.
- horizon range: by placing the radar higher on a mast, it increases the radar horizon of being able to detect low flying targets, relative to if the radar was placed lower. Of course, placing a radar higher means you cannot make the individual arrays as large as if you placed it lower, but given this is a twin face solution anyhow, and given the 054B is meant to be a relatively economical frigate, it is not a big deal, because their individual array size was always going to have a maximum size anyhow. Indeed, for a frigate like 054B, attaining greater maximum radar horizon would actually be quite a beneficial capability, and if it is placed at a similar height to Sea Eagle on 054A, the radar on 054B will have a higher radar horizon for its primary S band AESA than 052D does for its own S band AESA (Type 346A)! The reason why you cannot put say, a three fixed face radar of the same array size and at the same mast height is because of structural/top heavy reasons.

The SAMPSON is also an S band twin face fast rotating AESA, aboard the Type 45 destroyers. That was a solution that the UK went with for a number of reasons (no least due to financial, but also due to availability/prevalence of other friendly AAW assets that they may have or lack) -- but it is saying something for us to consider that the "economical" 054B may have a primary radar capability that is not far from what the UK's primary AAW destroyer possesses.

The US Constellation class frigate and its SPY-6V3 radar setup makes for an interesting comparison to 054B's radar configuration. The Constellation class faces a similar challenge to 054B, in desiring a capable yet more economical radar system relative to their Burke class destroyers.
But they selected a solution with three fixed face medium-small sized array faces, placed immediately above the deck house structure, but still far lower than 054B's mast mounted radar. For the Constellation class, they prioritized having more consistent 360 degree coverage (using a fixed face configuration), and sacrificing slightly longer range (medium-small sized array), and also sacrificing radar horizon range (mounted atop the deckhouse rather than atop a mast).
Both the 054B's solution and the Constellation class's solution are very reasonable and neither is better than the other -- it's simply a reflection of the competing requirements that favours slightly greater capability in one domain versus another.
 
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