054B/new generation frigate

Gloire_bb said:

Why 200?

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Got to draw the minimum long range capability somewhere. And given the existing availability of HHQ-9 family SAMs (with an effective range of about 200km or more) on 052D and 055, standardizing that minimum long range capability with UVLS canisters across the three types of ships (054B, 052D, 055) seems like a good foundation to start with.

The Wuhan Lantern also shows the location of the phase array CEC units. This is important for sensor fusion with ships equipped with similar panels, particularly the 055, the 075, 001/2/3 and so on. Also among the 054B themselves.




Fan CGI of the 054B based on the current rumor talk.




The CG leaves many blanks however.

Placement of the phase array target illuminators. Probably like the way they are installed on the 054A.

Placement of the phase array CEC units. Likely in integrated mast under the main search radar, with the fourth array on the aft integrated mast facing rear.

Placement of the IFF units, which should be long bar shaped phase arrays. Likely in the forward integrated mast with three of the bars, and the 4th bar on the aft integrated mast.

Placement of the ECM, which should be a phase array under the bridge wing.

Bltizo said:

Got to draw the minimum long range capability somewhere. And given the existing availability of HHQ-9 family SAMs (with an effective range of about 200km or more) on 052D and 055, standardizing that minimum long range capability with UVLS canisters across the three types of ships (054B, 052D, 055) seems like a good foundation to start with.

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Ok, sounds reasonable.

Then I'll add some medium/high altitude threats and some of my own thoughts. Not forcing my conclusions on you, of course, this matter will obviously depend on personal opinion.

~10-25 km - bomb release high altitude drop, drone light weapons, and everything that pops up from below the horizon;
~25-40 km - average for tactical missiles and unpowered gliding weapons with low aspect wing;
~80-90 - unpowered gliding weapons from high altitude drop (against moving target);
~100-140 - boosted gliding weapons from high altitude drop (against moving target); aerial gliding mines; modern ARMs.
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After that - currently produced air-launched light ASCMs and next-generation ARMs tend to be over 200(not all of them).
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Heavy air-launched ASCMs (both subsonic and supersonic) now aim for ~500 and more (their flight range in Lo-Lo-Lo is significantly shorter)

Long story:
Minimum self- and formation defense(not CIWS): 20-25 km(and ~12-15 altitude) is just necessary, anything less and you'll get bombed.
Optimal Max engagement range (non-AA combatant) still looks like 150-160 km to me. It deters most types of non-determined saturation attacks against the combatant, and allows a reasonable degree of coverage for dispersed TF.
Air defense combatants: should aim at 300 at least, but the opportunity to take even longer-ranged shots against oblivious targets may be of value. Furthermore, as per onbservations, it takes both size of the missiles and their number, especially when we're trying to protect friendly positioned away from the shooter.

Problems: the outer edge of engagement is a very slippery zone, as even for the fastest naval AA missiles it takes many minutes to get there, so there is ample opportunity for a target to react. Just as (or more) valuable are maximum ranges of direct launch(w/o loft) with given Probability of kill(Pk), as well as minimum engagement ranges, time to engage, and Pk at minimum engagement ranges.

The thing with 054B, if you enlarge the ship tonnage and fit state of the art sensors and weaponry, you are closer to the 052D functions, blurring the functions of 056A, 054A and 052D. Increased tonnage means higher cost and probably reduction in number of hulls.

LCR34 said:

The thing with 054B, if you enlarge the ship tonnage and fit state of the art sensors and weaponry, you are closer to the 052D functions, blurring the functions of 056A, 054A and 052D. Increased tonnage means higher cost and probably reduction in number of hulls.

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Growth of frigates are inevitable just as you are already seeing 7,000, 8,000 ton frigates in some nations, even 10,000 if Germany wants to call the MKS-180 as a frigate. The mission, specs and power creep are inevitable as the course of naval evolution.

China's GDP will continue to grow, so will her naval budget, so will the threats around her, and naturally you will expect future frigates and destroyers to scale with those increasing demands, threats and resources. The Type 054A weighs more than a Type 051 Luda and is about where the original Type 052 destroyer is. I don't think the number of hulls will be reduced at all since I can expect growth to scale with increasing GDP and naval budget.

Tam said:

Growth of frigates are inevitable just as you are already seeing 7,000, 8,000 ton frigates in some nations, even 10,000 if Germany wants to call the MKS-180 as a frigate. The mission, specs and power creep are inevitable as the course of naval evolution.

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To be fair, missions don't really change - smaller classes growing to certain sizes just take over missions that were previously performed by classes outgrowing their roles.
That back before ww1 was done by large protected cruisers and by treaty cruisers after ww1, by the height of CW was taken over by rapidly growing destroyers, and now frigates.

Other than a few weird outgrowers (Kievs and Kirovs), sizes are basically stagnant.

I think with a 5000t platform, you can have something that can carry hq9 and make use of most of its range, but if may not give you the full engagement performance you would get with 052d or 055. The design would be more optimized for sub 100 km range air defense and asw missions.

tphuang said:

I think with a 5000t platform, you can have something that can carry hq9 and make use of most of its range, but if may not give you the full engagement performance you would get with 052d or 055. The design would be more optimized for sub 100 km range air defense and asw missions.

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I mean that should be fine, not like the 054B will be replacing 052D or 055s, instead it will supplement them (and replace older smaller frigates and in time 054A possibly? Or older ones).

Classification of frigates differs vastly in many countries, most European navies' large frigates would likely be referred to as destroyers in other countries. And the roles of modern frigates and destroyers tend to overlap to such extent that they are not much different.

If PLAN's future frigates would be as large as NATO frigates at say, 7,000 tons, than successor of type 052D would have to be around 9,000 tons. And later version of type 055 or its successor would be at least 13,000 tons.

However, do we hear any rumour that such trend is in the making for PLAN? I think not.

The next generation PLAN frigate aka type 057 would be around 5,000 to 5,500 tons, with improved ASW capability and able to to carry 2 Z20 class helicopters. Air defense capability would remain at mid-range for fleet defense with later versions of HQ16 and new short to medium range SAM aka 555 project. It may use a modified version of UVLS used on type 052D, and possible laser weapon for defense against missiles and drones.

With a displacement of 5000+ tons, 054B would have some more flexibility to be equipped with some high-end AAW capabilities, compared with 054A. But it's important to carefully think through its missions before we "give" it a lot of capabilities.

To me, the most important mission for 054B should be the blue-water ASW, presumably within a CBG; a secondary mission would be a general-purpose frigate with blue-water capability (e.g., endurance) that may engage in conflicts of relatively low to medium level intensity not involving CBG.

For the blue-water ASW mission, 054B doesn't need long-range AAW missiles which should be handled by 052D and/or 055. Instead, it should be optimized for ASW. Ideally, I would have dual helicopters in addition to the full suite of ASW sonars/sensors/missiles/rockets. For AAW, I would have all quad-packed medium ranges missiles for self defense and participating in the medium range of fleet defense against saturation attacks. There need clear distinction and division of labor between 054B and 052D/055 in this mission.

For general-purpose blue-water mission, it makes sense to equip 054B with some (limited, mostly by sensor) capability of relatively long-range AAW missiles, either under the guidance of its own sensors or through CEC with other ships (052D/055/075). In this case, you would have a different VLS loadout and probably don't need two helicopters.

So ideally 054B should be able to be configured and equipped to handle the above two different missions.