054B/new generation frigate

DDG181

New Member
Registered Member
Suppose 054B is the successor of 052C/D and 054/054A, which means it will come in 50+ mass production -

- The improved H/PJ-34 (H/PJ-34B?) 100mm naval gun inherits from 054 and 052C.
- 32 AJK/16 inherits from 054A, for HHQ-16F, YU-8.
- 32 UVLS (possibly mid-ship?) inherits from 052D, for HHQ-9B, YJ-18, YJ-21.

In terms of Anti-air firepower (S for small VLS, L for large VLS) -
2X 054B = 64L + 64S > 1X 052D + 1X 054A = 64L + 32S > 1X Arleigh Bruke = 96S

In terms of production cost -
Arleigh Bruke > FFG(X) > 052D > 054B > 054A
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
Suppose 054B is the successor of 052C/D and 054/054A, which means it will come in 50+ mass production -

- The improved H/PJ-34 (H/PJ-34B?) 100mm naval gun inherits from 054 and 052C.
- 32 AJK/16 inherits from 054A, for HHQ-16F, YU-8.
- 32 UVLS (possibly mid-ship?) inherits from 052D, for HHQ-9B, YJ-18, YJ-21.

In terms of Anti-air firepower (S for small VLS, L for large VLS) -
2X 054B = 64L + 64S > 1X 052D + 1X 054A = 64L + 32S > 1X Arleigh Bruke = 96S

In terms of production cost -
Arleigh Bruke > FFG(X) > 052D > 054B > 054A

The 054B is not the successor of the 052D. The 054B is much weaker in anti-ship and AAW capabilities. It is cheaper and has the same or better ASW capabilities though. Its role is clear. Sensor saturation in ASW and an AAW vessel for less active areas. And of course, peacetime showing the flag stuff. I am not even sure if it is intended for carrier escort duties. If it really has a diesel-only propulsion, it will have hard time keeping up with CSGs.
 

DDG181

New Member
Registered Member
The 054B is not the successor of the 052D. The 054B is much weaker in anti-ship and AAW capabilities. It is cheaper and has the same or better ASW capabilities though. Its role is clear. Sensor saturation in ASW and an AAW vessel for less active areas. And of course, peacetime showing the flag stuff. I am not even sure if it is intended for carrier escort duties. If it really has a diesel-only propulsion, it will have hard time keeping up with CSGs.
The current situation is, we still know nothing about the mid-ship missile setup, it could either be 8X YJ-83, 8X YJ-12, 16X UVLS, 32X UVLS.

052C/D is an old hull, as one of the most heavily-armed 7000t vessels, the room for further modification is nearly exhausted just like Arleigh Burke Flight 3.

054B is a new hull with a more powerful diesel engine, it is full of possibilities, but still, many things need to be testified. The current situation of 054B is similar to 054 in 2003. Before the massive production of 054A, only two 054 were built, and does not even have a VLS. However, the hull and the propulsion are the same, 054 serves as an experiment.

I expect 054B to be a do-everything ship, if future 054C carries 16 or 32 UVLS in mid-ship, the anti-ship capabilities are also fulfilled.
- 054B is the same width as 052D, which means capable of inserting 16 or 32 mid-ship UVLS.
- If 054B/C carries YJ-18 or YJ-21, it can even play wolfpack tactics against CSG.
- Even so, the production cost is still much less than 052D, it is capable of mass production.

052D (7500t) and 054A (4000t) is the current pairing, 055 (13000t) and 054B (6000t) is the future pairing.
The goal is to set up a suitable pairing with 055, replacing 054/054A/052C/052D for sailing in the east Pacific, so either a 052E will look like a 054C, or a 054C will look like a 052E. The only debate is to adopt which propulsion method.
 

daifo

Captain
Registered Member
I believe the other knowledgeable members has describe that the sensor suite being bolted on the ship are not as advance as a destroyer. They are meant for short-medium range AA. Hence there is no way this is a destroyer replacement. Each class of PLAN ship seems to be fattening up for longer range sea journey. The 52 replacement will likely be bigger , not smaller.
 

DDG181

New Member
Registered Member
I believe the other knowledgeable members has describe that the sensor suite being bolted on the ship are not as advance as a destroyer. They are meant for short-medium range AA. Hence there is no way this is a destroyer replacement. Each class of PLAN ship seems to be fattening up for longer range sea journey. The 52 replacement will likely be bigger , not smaller.
This ship has a similar role as 054, which does not even have a VLS and uses HHQ-7.
If you are enlarging 52, then bigger to what extent? If going big enough, you already have 055, which fulfills everything better than 052D.
The reasonable way is it go smaller for 50+ mass production.
Massive mini 6000t 052E/054C > Luxury bulky 9000t 052E.
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
This ship has a similar role as 054, which does not even have a VLS and uses HHQ-7.
If you are enlarging 52, then bigger to what extent? If going big enough, you already have 055, which fulfills everything better than 052D.
The reasonable way is it go smaller for 50+ mass production.
Massive mini 6000t 052E/054C > Luxury bulky 9000t 052E.
Eh, the 052D replacer is likely to be a bigger ship.

Like in the 9k-10k ton range, but likely with about same number as VLS (maybe some deeper/bigger VLS, with emphasis on some).

The 055 is like 12.5k to 13k, so there's still quite the gap (and the new 054b seems like it be around 5-6k tons).
 

DDG181

New Member
Registered Member
Eh, the 052D replacer is likely to be a bigger ship.

Like in the 9k-10k ton range, but likely with about same number as VLS (maybe some deeper/bigger VLS, with emphasis on some).

The 055 is like 12.5k to 13k, so there's still quite the gap (and the new 054b seems like it be around 5-6k tons).
Just build more 055, why waste your resources on a 9000t potential-exhausted hull? What role can it play when having everything surpassed?

In terms of tonnage,
054A / 052D ≈ 054B / 055
4000 / 7500 ≈ 6000 / 13000

There is no room for a 9000t vessel, 055 is the successor for 052D. The reason 052DL kept building is due to maturity, since PLAN is eager to expand its fleets capacity in the upcoming years.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
The current situation is, we still know nothing about the mid-ship missile setup, it could either be 8X YJ-83, 8X YJ-12, 16X UVLS, 32X UVLS.

052C/D is an old hull, as one of the most heavily-armed 7000t vessels, the room for further modification is nearly exhausted just like Arleigh Burke Flight 3.

054B is a new hull with a more powerful diesel engine, it is full of possibilities, but still, many things need to be testified. The current situation of 054B is similar to 054 in 2003. Before the massive production of 054A, only two 054 were built, and does not even have a VLS. However, the hull and the propulsion are the same, 054 serves as an experiment.

I expect 054B to be a do-everything ship, if future 054C carries 16 or 32 UVLS in mid-ship, the anti-ship capabilities are also fulfilled.
- 054B is the same width as 052D, which means capable of inserting 16 or 32 mid-ship UVLS.
- If 054B/C carries YJ-18 or YJ-21, it can even play wolfpack tactics against CSG.
- Even so, the production cost is still much less than 052D, it is capable of mass production.

052D (7500t) and 054A (4000t) is the current pairing, 055 (13000t) and 054B (6000t) is the future pairing.
The goal is to set up a suitable pairing with 055, replacing 054/054A/052C/052D for sailing in the east Pacific, so either a 052E will look like a 054C, or a 054C will look like a 052E. The only debate is to adopt which propulsion method.
This ship has a similar role as 054, which does not even have a VLS and uses HHQ-7.
If you are enlarging 52, then bigger to what extent? If going big enough, you already have 055, which fulfills everything better than 052D.
The reasonable way is it go smaller for 50+ mass production.
Massive mini 6000t 052E/054C > Luxury bulky 9000t 052E.
The 054A/B and 052D respectively occupy completely separated tiers of surface combatant in the PLAN.

One is a FFG, the other is a DDG. These two warship types play different roles in the PLAN such that attempting to replace one warship type with the other means that the PLAN will lose out big in certain capabilities that the replaced warship type actually excels at doing.

No need to look further than across the Pacific - The US is pivoting back to the "high-low" tier mix with the Constellation FFGs after realizing that having the Arleigh Burke DDGs to do all the jobs on the high seas is proving to be overtaxing a 9000+ ton warship that has to do all the other things in a USN naval fleet, namely fleet air defense and anti-ship/land-attack operations.

Trying to have the 054Bs to take over the 052Ds is basically returning to what the US Navy did wrong - But worse. Even with an additional 32x UVLS amidships on the 054B means little as long as the radars, sensors and computer systems onboard the 054B are tailored to the missions of an FFG.

Besides, a surface combatant which is tailored towards fleet air defense and anti-ship missions on the high seas is considerably more demanding towards the platform which carries all sorts of radars, sensors, computer systems and equipment necessary for such missions. Such demands would be a very hard struggle for an FFG platform at 6000+ tons to fulfill. Plus, even if/when future development on the 052D DDG resulted in a platform (notionally designated 052E) that displaces 9000+ tons, I don't really see that as a problem, given how surface combatants of today and into the future are generally trending upwards in terms of size.

What is actually taking the chunk of expenses to build, operate and maintain a warship isn't the size and displacement of the warship's hull, but the radars, sensors, computers, weapon systems, propulsion and electrical systems and associated equipment onboard said warship.

In fact, using the 6000-ton 054B FFG as an "all-purpose/do-all" workhorse of the PLAN as you have mentioned would only considerably limit the capabilities and potential of said "all-purpose/do-all" workhorse warships. And that hasn't consider the necessary future improvement and upgrades to be done onto the warship itself.

Just build more 055, why waste your resources on a 9000t potential-exhausted hull? What role can it play when having everything surpassed?

In terms of tonnage,
054A / 052D ≈ 054B / 055
4000 / 7500 ≈ 6000 / 13000
I don't see how a 9000-ton 052E hull is a potential-exhausted hull if it is a newly designed hull that is significantly larger and different than the hulls of the 052C/D.

Who says that the 052E hull must be jam-packed to the brim with weapons and stuff?

I'd prefer the 052E to only have marginal increase in terms of armaments, but with significant improvements to the radar, sensor and computer systems, more efficient and powerful propulsion and electrical systems, alongside better endurance and long-term accommodation for its crew - While having sufficient spare capacity and volume that would permit future upgrades to be installed onboard than the 052D.

There is no room for a 9000t vessel, 055 is the successor for 052D. The reason 052DL kept building is due to maturity, since PLAN is eager to expand its fleets capacity in the upcoming years.
If the 055 is indeed a successor to the 052D, then they won't keep building more 052Ds while also building 055s simultaneously.

Besides, one important factor being that the 055 is pretty expensive. And at present, China needs to:
1. Expand its surface combatant fleet at speed, WHILE
2. Bringing capability upgrades across-the-board, AND
3. Without exhausting China's war chest in the process.

Here's the thing: The 054B is tailored towards fleet ASW and not fleet AAW, while the 055 is rather cost-prohibitive to be procured in large numbers. That naturally leaves the 052D (and possibly 052E in the future) as the only warship capable of fulfilling the responsibilities of fleet AAW in PLAN fleet formations with sufficient versatility for other tasks and within reasonable budget.
 
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DDG181

New Member
Registered Member
Here's the thing: The 054B is tailored towards fleet ASW and not fleet AAW, while the 055 is rather cost-prohibitive to be procured in large numbers. That naturally leaves the 052D (and possibly 052E in the future) as the only warship capable of fulfilling the responsibilities of fleet AAW in PLAN fleet formations with sufficient versatility for other tasks and within reasonable budget.
Build cost -
055 866M USD (8+ planned)
052D 505M USD (est. 37 planned)
054B 3##-4##M USD
054A 280M USD (40 built)

So you are enlarging 052D into 9000t 052E, the build cost is between 505-866M USD, why are you so sure it is cost-efficient? 052D is already perfect.

However, a 054B, either with mid-ship YJ-83/12/18/21, either with moderate or advanced sensors, sits between 280-505M, both ends have foreseen mass production.

An assumption is, that buying 1 052E (est. 80 UVLS) costs you nearly 2 054B (est. 64 UVLS + 64 AJK-16), which one is cost-efficient?

AAW and ASW do not conflict, the export HHQ-16F which perfectly matches 054A/B's AJK-16, has a range of 160km already surpassing early HHQ-9. With UVLS, 054B can carry the entire family of HHQ-9B / HHQ-16F / HHQ-10, which might even work better than 052D for full-scale AAW.
Trying to have the 054Bs to take over the 052Ds is basically returning to what the US Navy did wrong - But worse. Even with an additional 32x UVLS amidships on the 054B means little as long as the radars, sensors and computer systems onboard the 054B are tailored to the missions of an FFG.
FFG(X) carries both SM3 and SM6, does it have advanced sensors?
Moderate sensors 054A carry 160 km HHQ-16F, why can't perform AAW?
No ship fight alone, 055 has much more advanced sensors, 054B can utilize that and function as an extension of 055.
By the way, the 054B's sensor is not that bad...

What US Navy did wrong is to let luxurious old-Arleigh do everything, but this is obviously not the case for 054B.
054B with UVLS is already a cost-lowered 052D, with nerfed sensors and half-lighter VLS.
But keep producing luxurious 9000t 052E follows the same wrong path.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Build cost -
055 866M USD (8+ planned)
052D 505M USD (est. 37 planned)
054B 3##-4##M USD
054A 280M USD (40 built)

So you are enlarging 052D into 9000t 052E, the build cost is between 505-866M USD, why are you so sure it is cost-efficient? 052D is already perfect.

However, a 054B, either with mid-ship YJ-83/12/18/21, either with moderate or advanced sensors, sits between 280-505M, both ends have foreseen mass production.

An assumption is, that buying 1 052E (est. 80 UVLS) costs you nearly 2 054B (est. 64 UVLS + 64 AJK-16), which one is cost-efficient?

AAW and ASW do not conflict, the export HHQ-16F which perfectly matches 054A/B's AJK-16, has a range of 160km already surpassing early HHQ-9. With UVLS, 054B can carry the entire family of HHQ-9B / HHQ-16F / HHQ-10, which might even work better than 052D for full-scale AAW.
#1 - How sure are you about the price tags' veracity of PLAN warships? And even if we assume that the above quotes are accurate:

#2 - Who said that the 055 will forever be stuck at 13000 tons and be forever void of any improvements and upgrades? Passing the 1 billion USD price tag mark for the future 055s and 055-successors is never an impossibility.

In fact, this is very much to be expected, and given how an American FFG costs more than a Chinese large DDG (more like a CG by this point), I'd say that there's more space for the costs of a large DDG/CG to grow into, rather than otherwise.

#3 - If military procurement is as easy and straightforward as you have described, then go have a hundred domestic Saar 6s and be happy with it. Way more cost-effective than procuring 054Bs and 055s. The Saar 6s have credible AShMs and some ABM-capable SAMs too, in fact.

#4 - Apparently you still don't have a general understanding on how a fleet AAW-tailored surface combatant differs from a fleet ASW-tailored surface combatant. I'd suggest you go have a look at what @MarKoz81, @Blitzo and others have explained on this topic previously in this thread.

#5 - Who said that the PLAN's 054A is already using/will be using HHQ-16 variants with the same 160 kilometer-range as its export counterpart? FYI, the domestic 054A does not carry YJ-12s, unlike their Pakistani counterpart.

FFG(X) carries both SM3 and SM6, does it have advanced sensors?
Moderate sensors 054A carry 160 km HHQ-16F, why can't perform AAW?
No ship fight alone, 055 has much more advanced sensors, 054B can utilize that and function as an extension of 055.
By the way, the 054B's sensor is not that bad...

What US Navy did wrong is to let luxurious old-Arleigh do everything, but this is obviously not the case for 054B.
054B with UVLS is already a cost-lowered 052D, with nerfed sensors and half-lighter VLS.
But keep producing luxurious 9000t 052E follows the same wrong path.
#6 - And China has no plans to have their 054A/Bs fitted with HHQ-9s, let alone HHQs that are capable of ABM. The more capable SAMs are the responsibility for the larger 052Ds and 055s to carry.

#7 - I'd suggest you to have a read on what @Gloire_bb and others have explained about the Constellation versus 054B previously in this thread.

TL;DR - These two are not on the same level and category, despite both being FFGs by designation. One is essentially a squeezed Burke, while the other is an ASW-cum-general purpose warship.

#8 - I don't see how a 9000-ton 052E is anywhere being luxurious, especially when the future 055 derivations and 055-successors are expected to cost more than what the current 055 costs right now.
 
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