054B/new generation frigate

snake65 said:

Russian Fregat M2M or MAE-3 double-face radar weighs 2.5 tons. Weight of Sea Eagle should not be much different. What would be your estimate for weight of the new double-faced radar on 054B?

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Significantly heavier given the new 054B array is a double sided AESA with much more volume behind the arrays.

Sea Eagle and the new twin face AESA were both tested on the same class of test ship (891 and 892 respectively), conveniently on the same location on the hull, allowing a rough scaled comparison of their size and their volume.

This is the comparison


This is the full side view of the mount, where the full solid volume of the rotating setup is visible, behind the arrays.


This is the volume and cross section of Sea Eagle




How much heavier is the new twin face array likely to be compared to Sea Eagle?

I'm not sure. But I guess it would be heavy enough such that I would be impressed if they were able to maintain the same mast height as Sea Eagle on a ship with only two meters greater beam than 054A.

What exactly do you mean by "the full solid volume"? Isn't the space between the faces used for air cooling similar to Sampson? Does the air conditioning unit below make it "significantly heavier"??

ACuriousPLAFan said:

Looks like they managed to swim ashore. Posted by @谈笑看世间2023 on Weibo, shared by

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Left one is the 054B frigate, right one is a Coast Guard boat(?) based on the 054-series.

View attachment 115654
View attachment 115655

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Looks like the Chinese security police would be knocking on this guy's doors very soon.

Blitzo said:

Significantly heavier given the new 054B array is a double sided AESA with much more volume behind the arrays.

Sea Eagle and the new twin face AESA were both tested on the same class of test ship (891 and 892 respectively), conveniently on the same location on the hull, allowing a rough scaled comparison of their size and their volume.

This is the comparison
View attachment 115682

This is the full side view of the mount, where the full solid volume of the rotating setup is visible, behind the arrays.
View attachment 115683

This is the volume and cross section of Sea Eagle
View attachment 115684



How much heavier is the new twin face array likely to be compared to Sea Eagle?

I'm not sure. But I guess it would be heavy enough such that I would be impressed if they were able to maintain the same mast height as Sea Eagle on a ship with only two meters greater beam than 054A.

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The masts supporting the radars are not the same on both ships. The one holding the dual faced AESA appears thicker, might have greater volume for things underneath like plumbing and stronger supports.

snake65 said:

What exactly do you mean by "the full solid volume"? Isn't the space between the faces used for air cooling similar to Sampson? Does the air conditioning unit below make it "significantly heavier"?View attachment 115685?

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I don't think it's air cooled. It's likely liquid cooled from the experience used on the arrays on the destroyers. Liquid is pumped in and out through the rotary coupling going up and down the array and the mast to the cooling units in the hull. All the heavy stuff will be below deck, and the hot air from the thermal exchangers would have to pass to the funnel to reduce IR signature. An air cooled AESA would have a curved dome to allow the air to move through more efficiently as you not only see on the SAMPSON but also on the curved dome panels of the 052C destroyer. However such air cooled AESA is a thing of the past, and as you see with the 052D and 055, they have gone with liquid cooled units which allows for higher peak power without burning out the arrays. To further reduce the heat produced by the array, it's likely the array would use Gallium Nitride.

snake65 said:

What exactly do you mean by "the full solid volume"? Isn't the space between the faces used for air cooling similar to Sampson? Does the air conditioning unit below make it "significantly heavier"?View attachment 115685?

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Very unlikely to be air cooled.

Look at the cross section of SAMPSON, and notice how it is covered by the spherical dome to allow air to circulate over the front face of the arrays.
The new two faced AESA has completely flat arrays, so it is likely to be liquid cooled.

The Type 346 on the 052C has a combination of liquid and air cooling, and we can tell it is air cooled because the arrays have a round cover to allow air to circulate over the front face of the arrays.


Furthermore, even if the new two faced AESA did have a circular dome over it for air cooling, the size of the mount and the cooling pumps and mechanism through the mast and to the arrays would still make it a much heavier setup than Sea Eagle is, which is not very voluminous at all and just has the two sided array exposed to the elements.

For example, this is how thick the array face and back end of the Type 346A for 052D is. Even if the new twin face radar is able to use newer technology to thin it out and move parts of the system lower on the ship, the difference in solid array size compared to how thin the Sea Eagle is, cannot be ignored.




Regardless of how you slice it, yes, the new twin faced AESA is likely to be significantly heavier than the Sea Eagle.

One face of European APAR is 1.8 m in diameter and weighs around 2 tons, quite densely packed with 3424 elements per face. Do you expect new AESA to be heavier?

snake65 said:

One face of European APAR is 1.8 m in diameter and weighs around 2 tons, quite densely packed with 3424 elements per face. Do you expect new AESA to be heavier?

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I don't know how heavy the new twin face AESA will be compared to other APARs. I suspect it will be similar, with the provision that the 054B mast mount will include not only the two faces of the array but the back end cooling and other associated systems such as any ducting that needs to go that high.

I do however expect the new radar mount to be heavier than the Sea Eagle radar mount.


We were comparing the height of 054A's Sea Eagle radar height to the potential height of 054B's radar height, so I'm not sure what the weight of European radars have to do with anything.


However you cut it, if the 054B's radar mount is similar in height to the 054A Sea Eagle height, it would be very reasonable.

snake65 said:

What exactly do you mean by "the full solid volume"? Isn't the space between the faces used for air cooling similar to Sampson? Does the air conditioning unit below make it "significantly heavier"?View attachment 115685?

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The radar on the Type 054A is a PESA (frequency scanned) architecture, whereas the new radar is AESA. In the latter, the power amplifiers and signal processing circuitry are embedded within the array and a large amount of heat is dissipated into the array necessitating more substantial heatsinks. In the former, the power amplifier is likely below deck as are the signal generator and processing equipment and therefore the array can be kept relatively light.

Zichan said:

The radar on the Type 054A is a PESA (frequency scanned) architecture, whereas the new radar is AESA. In the latter, the power amplifiers and signal processing circuitry are embedded within the array and a large amount of heat is dissipated into the array necessitating more substantial heatsinks. In the former, the power amplifier is likely below deck as are the signal generator and processing equipment and therefore the array can be kept relatively light.

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No, the transmitting and receiving equipment should be close to the arrays to avoid significant losses in waveguides . In short, AESA is heavy array with little weight below, PESA is the opposite. I've been inside the radar mast of the Dutch AD frigate F-806 De Ruyter. Trust me, it's pretty crowded there.

Blitzo said:

We were comparing the height of 054A's Sea Eagle radar height to the potential height of 054B's radar height, so I'm not sure what the weight of European radars have to do with anything

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It is a good reference point for both the weight and number of TFRs per face. I would have preferred more modern Leonardo Kronos but haven't been able to find the relevant data in public domain. Otherwise we are limited to Type 346 radar which is much larger.

snake65 said:

It is a good reference point for both the weight and number of TFRs per face. I would have preferred more modern Leonardo Kronos but haven't been able to find the relevant data in public domain. Otherwise we are limited to Type 346 radar which is much larger.

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For the purposes of estimating the weight of the 054Bs radar, we need to at least know how big each array is, as well as estimate what the back end associated cooling systems are (as it is likely not air cooled).

So it's a reasonable method, but we just don't have enough information for it.


However regardless, it should be enough to say that it should be substantially heavier than Sea Eagle.