054B/new generation frigate

ChongqingHotPot92 said:

A smarter design would simply involve adding additional 16-32 VLS in the rear.

Click to expand...

You make it sound so simple. VLS requires not only structural modifications to support their different weight distribution, but more importantly it depends on whether there are important subsystems in that part of the ship (like propulsion) which cannot easily be moved, to accommodate deck and hull penetrating VLS tubes.

I would also prefer more VLS cells and unification of the VLS with the one in the destroyers.
But it is not like other navies are not using slanted launchers for the surface to surface missiles either. Even the US Constellation class frigate which is much larger seems to be going to use slanted launchers.

ChongqingHotPot92 said:

A smarter design would simply involve adding additional 16-32 VLS in the rear.

Click to expand...

Most likely not realistic in this hull. If she does use IEP propulsion as rumored, most of the extra space in this modified hull would go to additional generators and energy storage plus a bit in the back for a larger helo deck. Dabao's comparison CG showcases this very well. The change to GT+diesel also required a complete redesign of the exhausts and GT exhausts take up more space already. The additional machinery and energy generator/storage midship make it impossible to install VLS there, a frigate just does not have that deep a hull.



I mean I guess you could lengthen and widen the hull further but then we go dangerously into the questions of "Why not just start over with a new hull" and "Why not just build an actual destroyer"? From what we know PLAN doesn't need the largest frigate that carries the most VLS or most lethal complement of anti-ship missiles, they just need a more awesome 054A, i.e., a frigate.

32 UVLS at the front and 8 YJ-12 launchers amidships would be a serious upgrade from the current 054A configuration.

Dante80 said:

32 UVLS at the front and 8 YJ-12 launchers amidships would be a serious upgrade from the current 054A configuration.

Click to expand...

I feel that this baby 054B likely will be commissioned way before Constellation Frigate, in fact there may be several 054B in service before the first Constellation commissioned

FriedRiceNSpice said:

Wondering if it would be possible for a squadron of multiple 054Bs to synchronize their radars in a way that would achieve 360 degree coverage at all times by merging the data from each node into a single unified view of the battlespace to approach the same tracking performance as fixed array systems.

Click to expand...

If they have unified sensor CEC yes.

The test radar on Wuhan with the now cancelled Chinese Lantern radome, by the way, has CEC phase arrays on the stem, likely same ones we see on the 055 and on the carriers.

When the ship's fitting is done, it will be more obvious in the form of four small rectangles on each side of the mast tower, likely under the search radar.

They will be able to radar fusion with the 055s and the carriers, including the 075s. All radar data is combined into a fused track.

Another way is to have a second, small, faster rotating radar. This bill would have to be fit with the Type 368, the smaller dual sided AESA currently used on the 075. This radar should be mounted on the second mast.

If the main larger radar rotates at 30 rpm and with two sides, you have a horizontal update rate of 60 times a minute. If the smaller dual sided radar has a turn rate of 60 RPM just as its widely used predecessor, the Type 364 has, you have an update rate of 128 times.

The smaller radar will have a shorter range, but when the threat targets are both in the shared space of the larger and smaller radar, you get a combined update rate of 128 + 60.

This mode again works on the principle of sensor fusion by combining the track data from different radar systems within the ship as opposed to out of.

The third way is that the radar might have a glare and stare mode where it slows down to match the target speed. The radar panel has both electronic horizontal and vertical scanning.

4th is that active guided missiles do allow for a certain level of tracking 'looseness'. The active radar seeker is what brings the missile to the target, all it needs from the radar is to bring the missile to the 'catch basket'. Command guided, track via missile and semiactive home guidance requires much greater levels of tracking precision.

5th is that search radars will queue fire control radars which will do the fine tracking. Thats generally how traditional SAM systems work. The FCRs are responsible for guiding the SAMs. The rotating search radars do their continuous 360 degree sweep while the fire control radars are tracking targets for engagement.

antiterror13 said:

I feel that this baby 054B likely will be commissioned way before Constellation Frigate, in fact there may be several 054B in service before the first Constellation commissioned

Click to expand...

China has its frigate production lines running in at least 2 shipyards and churning out ships at speed, whereas the US doesn't run at such rate.

ChongqingHotPot92 said:

If this were true, it is still marginally less armed compared to the Constellation. The Constellation deliberately put 16 NSM missiles in its rear (like the 167 Shenzhen) for intensive surface combat in the Western Pacific. However, this design only allows for 8 YJ-12, which are good missiles, but having 16 (like the Shenzhen) would be better.

Click to expand...

NSM is half as light as yj-83/harpoon. It's in penguin class(i.e. helicopter ASM), not a direct harpoon follow-on.

It is a specific adaptation against small/coastal, potentially numerous(including unmanned) targets which missile may need to filter out of noise/background/traffic itself. Subsonic& Imaging-ir NSM is ideally positioned to do just that. In addition, it will seriously conpromise effectiveness of the smallest chinese naval SHORAD missile system(low IR signature, no emissions).

Number of missiles here comes from its weight, but also it is done to allow captain to fire single shots and small salvos without any second thoughts. Missiles are many, NSM launch doesn't really send missile all that high=IR signature of the launch(compromising launch location) is minimal.

De facto, i suspect that in case of an actual surface action(avare surface ships, not an ambush), the main weapon of Constellation class will be sm-2MR blk.3, not the NSM.

YJ-12 is a direct opposite, a large weapon designed specifically for massed use (often as a coordinated salvo of multiple ships) against distinctive and large surface targets in high seas warfare. In this case, situation is the opposite: against smaller/local surface targets, ship commander will probably opt for a SAM.

Tam said:

A fixed phased array radar does both horizontal and vertical scans on the same face. It's rate of update is determined electronically.

On a rotating phase or planar array radar, the radar does a vertical scan electronically but the horizontal scan is done mechanically through the radar's rotation. That puts a mechanical limit to your update rate, unless the radar does a counterclockwise horizontal scan. Putting two faces instead of one, like you see in SAMPSON and Heracles, and what's likely on the 054B radar, doubles the rate of horizontal update from the rate of revolution.

Click to expand...

Given that the Arleigh Burke and Constellation use the same SPY-6 faces and presumably back end, wouldn't the Constellation rotating faces to be able to scan horizontally as well?

AndrewS said:

Given that the Arleigh Burke and Constellation use the same SPY-6 faces and presumably back end, wouldn't the Constellation rotating faces to be able to scan horizontally as well?

Click to expand...

Yes. The radar might stop and go to a glare mode at the target, moving only enough to keep it's face on the target. Or it can rotate for instance clockwise while the beans are horizontally scanning counterclockwise to enable them to stay on the target longer.