054/A FFG Thread II
- Thread starter tphuang
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asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
does anyone have the Chinese wikipedia link for Type 054A?
it was accurate for launches the English one is messed up
it was accurate for launches the English one is messed up
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
30th x Type 054A launched in 2018
that 30 in 12 years or 2.5 per year
not bad now onto 4 more for Pakistan
it means the line has built FFG for 13 years straight what a production run
that 30 in 12 years or 2.5 per year
not bad now onto 4 more for Pakistan
it means the line has built FFG for 13 years straight what a production run
Shouldn't it be easy to jump from the English entry to the Chinese one?
054:
054A:
While above is good reference on SR2410C, I wonder people asked this before:
1) Exactly what it means in replacing 382 (in 054A/P case) with SR2410C? As in defence.pk, people are claiming it's an upgrade, understandably. I tend to buy this since,
2) till yet, we saw almost every latest export 053H2, 056, and 054A/P are moving to SR2410C. Yet 002 AC (Shandong) under sea trial seems to have 382(D). Is it because such as EW tactic or integration issue? Or, will it be replaced?
3) If SR2410C can replace 382 and it's a upgrade, 054A or not, there will be huge demand there for all 052B, 054A (MLU?), older 056, and even still-alive 053x series. How about the just re-furbished 051B, Sovremenny destroyers, and 053H3?
Looks quite puzzle to me - I admit I didn't verify difference among the 382 mounted in various ships... ...
SR2410C is first featured with Bangladesh corvettes. Essentially Type 056 corvettes mounted with this radar. On the export ships, SR2410C replaces the Type 360S or Type 364 radar used on top of the main mast of PLAN Type 056 and 056A. Not only does it function as search radar, it would serve to queue for HQ-10 missiles. During Zhuhai displays, SR2410C will work with SAMs like FM-3000.
Because of this, I would assume that SR2410C would replace the Type 364 radar on the Type 054A. The Type 364 is the second search radar on the Type 054A and said to be the radar used on top of the funnel. It helps queue CIWS to the targets and provides a second layer of target tracking, which greatly increases the rate of a target being tracked.
MR-710 (Fregat M2EM used on Sovremmenny) is said to have a 12 rpm, and with dual faces, the horizontal 2D updates to the target would be around 24 times per minute. According to this
Not sure if this data is correct but lets assume if it is. Then Type 382 with 30 rpm and with two faces, would update 60 times per minute. Then we have the Type 364 radar.
Assuming this is correct, this is 30 rpm, with a single face, so 30 rpm. This means the target is updated 30 times a minute. If your CMS can combine the tracks of two radars you are updating the target tracks at 90 times a minute. That's a huge improvement over relying on MR-710 alone like on Project 956 destroyers. No wonder it was first added on the Type 052B destroyer and used with every PLAN warship ever since till the Type 055.
Because I thought the SR2410C is the Type 364 replacement, I would have expected it to replace the aft search radar on the 054A/P, putting this radar on top of the funnel instead of the main mast. So 054A/P surprised me that SR2410C replaced the main Type 382 radar instead, while retaining the Type 364 on the funnel mast. So yes, surprised, yet at the same time, not so surprised because the SR2410C overlaps the functionality of both Type 382 and Type 364 radars.
If SR2410C can replace both Type 364 and 382 radars, then virtually every ship in the PLAN can be upgraded to this including every Type 054 and 056. This even includes the top mast radars on the Type 052C and 052D destroyers, unless those radars inside the radomes are already some planar phase array.
One catch though. I do think the SR2410C costs a lot of money as you can expect all AESA or APAR type (Active Phase Array) radars to be. Updating so many PLAN ships can amount to an enormous bill. I do see the radar as potentially for future Type 056 corvettes, or MLU for Type 054A, Type 052B, Type 051C, Type 052C and Type 052D, with the case of the latter two, replacing the Type 364 on top of the mast, supplementing the Type 346 radars. It depends on the budget and how willing they are to spend to maximize the combat capability of the ships, and finally a comparison against all other MLU alternatives for the ships.
And so why isn't the SR2410C on top of carrier 02? I think the bottom line is cost, the fact that the ship already has a fixed budget, that you are finding the pieces to fit that budget best, and the ship is already using Type 346A, the four faced AESA radars around the island. I also think its because of institutional inertia, with the ship already designed for the Type 382, and they are not going to delay the project to redesign the ship's systems with the SR2410C. You may also ask the question why Type 382 isn't used on top of the Type 052C and 052D destroyers along with the Type 346 radars, like the set up used on the Liaoning and the Second Carrier. I do think the Type 382 can and could have been used on top of 052C and 052D, but they made a decision to use the Type 364 instead, and I suspect that might have to do with cost too, with the Type 364 costing even less than the Type 382.
Finally this leaves the question if the SR2410C may appear on the third carrier instead. But at this point I can see other competing alternatives, like the "Chinese lantern" array we have seen with Type 054B drawings and has an actual test prototype in Wuhan, or like the upper mast arrays near the top of the integrated mast on the Type 055. I also cannot rule out that SR2410C itself might be inside the lantern. There is also another alternative phase array that was once seen on the PLAN weapon test ship, and is also seen on displays of export frigates by the CSSC, like infamous trimaran one.
1. Supposedly array and mast for Type 054B. 2. Radar seen on export CSSC frigates including trimaran design. 3. Type 055 upper mast.
based on the mock up of the wuhan carrier mock up's arrangement for 003, we can see one large cut out lower on the island consistent with a 346X phased array radar system, with a set of smaller cutouts that would be consistent with a smaller phased array system as well.
It's heavily suspected but not yet confirmed that one of the sets of arrays on 055's integrated mast is for an X band phased array system, so I suspect 003 carrier may feature a similar system if not the same system in the smaller cutouts that we can see.
As for SR2410C, I think it is best seen as a Chinese equivalent to Smart S, which has also been installed on light to medium surface combatants like corvettes and frigates.
I'm unsure if the PLA will seek to induct the radar for its own ships; I think the system makes sense for nations that may not afford medium to large warships to carry expensive full spec large phased array systems like 346X, SPY-1, 6, etc.
It could make sense for a system like SR2410C or an evolution of it to be part of an MLU for warships like 054As in a decades time to replace Sea Eagle, but I can't see them having to install a system like it on 052C/Ds as it would overlap quite a bit with 346/A.
The mock up for 002 didn't feature the Type 382 but the actual ship ended up doing so. This one on 003 however, doesn't seem to leave much room, and if its like the Type 055 instead, it would put a passive ESM antenna instead. Using this, instead of an active radar, the ESM would rely on detecting a threat missile via the threat radar instead.
I forgot to mention on my previous post, the choice of using Type 382 on Liaoning and Carrier no. 2 might also have to do with copy inertia, The Admiral Kuznetsov did feature the Fregat.
SMART-S is also used on Charles De Gaulle carrier.
All these ships above, from the Kuznetsov, to the De Gaulle, to the two Chinese carriers, all their setups are redundant. You can see even the Kuznetsov has its own powerful PARs below the Fregat.
The point of using a smaller search radar on top of the big powerful radars is that these radars are small and light. They are much easier to situate higher on the ship on top of the mast, where they can peer down longer down the horizon to extend the radar horizon range. This is critical for early warning against sea skimming ASMs. Big powerful PARs are too heavy, and even if you did build a mast high enough, could affect the ship's center of gravity.
This is why the SR2410C would not overlap with the Type 346A on the 052C/D. Its your ship's sea skimming spotter, which is what the Type 364 does for practically nearly two decades of PLAN warships anyway.
There are other big reasons why SR2410C or another AESA PAR needs to replace all the Type 364/382 in the fleet. The older radars are all mechanical radars. They can't manage their sidelobes as well as digital beam forming can. Using these radars can be tantamount to giving away the location of your fleet. Nowadays, using ship radar is like using sub active sonar --- they both give themselves away to the enemy. Active PAR alleviate that problem by minimizing sidelobes so that enemy ESM don't pick them up. Which by the way, the enemy ESM will also take that signal to not only identify your ship, but create a counter signal to spoof it.
The second advantage of using active PAR is that the radar is agile enough to create pseudo randoms on its waveforms, which may end up looking like noise or static to the enemy ESM. Thus you can be detecting and tracking the enemy but their ESM and RWR isn't being triggered, and this is called LPI or Low Probability of Interception. You can search freely without giving yourself away. If SR2410C is an AESA with LPI, then its an enormous step over the Type 364, as this can help greatly with the survival of the upgraded 052C/D and 054A, and your fleet. In fact I think the reason why the 055 is entirely AESA including all its secondary and auxiliary radars (except for the one on top of the CIWS), is to press with the LPI advantage. This by the way, is also the reason why Type 055 only uses a passive ESM on its top mast and why carrier 003 might be so --- using passive ESM to search for threats doesn't give the ship away.
If you are going to assume that having all LPI ready ships are going to be a goal the PLAN is striving for its future ships, this will decisively affect how we are going to speculate on future 054B, 052E, 071X, future carriers, and even future 056X, with complete removal of all mechanical radars and replaced by active PARs. This can also affect future MLUs too, although this approach can also be very expensive and top end.
Finally, not of any lesser importance, is how SR2410C or these other active PARs can detect stealthier missiles versus their mechanical predecessors. That means detecting said stealthy target, lets say an LRASM, on the extended radar horizon seen from the top mast.
I think the mock up for 002 didn't need to feature Sea Eagle because between Liaoning and 002 the differences for that area of the mast were negligible.
In the case of 003, I simply expect the top of the mast to be ESM whereas the island will feature a lower placed S band array (Type 346x) and a higher placed X band array. Not dissimilar to the DBR on the Ford class in terms of relative emplacement of S and X band arrays.
Well, what I wrote was that I don't expect a radar like SR2410C to be installed on ships like 052C/D. I didn't say that Type 364 radars wouldn't be replaced in future.
In fact I think it's very possible that ships like 052C/D may have their Type 364 radars equipped with a different horizon/surface search radar design that has less overlap with Type 346/A than SR2410C does.
For example, I think if they put one panel of the 055's X band array onto a fast rotating emplacement in lieu of Type 364, it would be more suitable than SR2410C.