Iron Man's point still stands though and it's also reasonable to assume that the newer designs are improvements over the older ones given technological advancement, even when there is no way to prove one way or another based on public or verifiable information.
054/A FFG Thread II
- Thread starter tphuang
- Start date
Iron Man's point still stands though and it's also reasonable to assume that the newer designs are improvements over the older ones given technological advancement, even when there is no way to prove one way or another based on public or verifiable information.
D
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Seeing as the IN deploys some very credible antiship missiles as well as long range fighters, an upgraded radar would be much needed in this instance. As the Type 54As would not only have to fend for themselves but also most likely their escorts or key coastal installations as well. As, like I said before, the PN is unlikely to acquire any Aegis type ship for air defense in the future.
Precisely why I highly suggested that PN gets the upgraded HQ-16Bs in naval form. An increase from 40 to 70 KM is a critical plus. The DK-10 would be the best option for PN as it would quadruple the number of missiles the Type 54A can carry with its VLS, but since there is still no evidence that it can be deployed from the VLS on 54A (or indeed any hard evidence that it is deployed in any form at all), I am leaving that one out for the moment.
The newest 054As have the same VDS and TAS systems as the 052D. They also have torpedo hard-kill systems and confirmed existence of an entire suite of countermeasures to beef up their survivability onion. The 052D does not have torpedo hard-kill systems and it's unclear as to whether its ASW survivability onion is as robust and layered as the 054A's. Essentially, it's safe to say the 054A has no qualitative hardware handicap compared to 052Ds and likely even has a hardware advantage in ASW.
Another significant advantage of the 054A is its sheer quantity. The cost of a 054A is 1.5 billion yuan, compared to 6 billion yuan for a 055 and a probable ~3 billion yuan for a 052D. This means the PLAN can and has produced more 054As than any other expeditionary vessel. With the confirmed order of 24 054Bs, that trend is set to continue. For half to a quarter the cost of an AAW destroyer, the PLAN can have a vessel that offers comparable if not better ASW performance. This means for certain budget, the PLAN can allocate more ASW to a task force than if they bought solely 052Ds or 055s. Unlike AAW, ASW ranges are much shorter and require more vessels to effect overlaps in ASW coverage, coverage that may not be financially attainable without affordable ASW assets like the 054A and imminent 054Bs.
In short, the 054A is the PLAN's primary ASW asset because its ASW sensors and weaponry are no worse, if not actually better, than its destroyer counterparts, while remaining significantly more affordable. In terms of ASW, the Type 054 family provides both quality and quantity to the PLAN's arsenal.
All that is true, at the same time the 052D does have the universal VLS which the 054A does not have, with more space per cell and 24 more cells (vs 32 VLS + 8 slant boxes). That's a significant advantage to potentially reach out and touch a sub despite one less, though significant, hard kill self-defense system.
Indeed. ASW favors more hulls on the water for increased coverage, while AAW favors bigger hulls due to scaling efficiencies. Another thing about the 054A is that the hull maybe quiet due to its isolated power cell design, with the machinery section is rubber isolated to reduce noise. The quieter the ship, the more effective the sonar operates, even if the same sonar is used on a more noisier ship. A noisy ship --- like the steam engine on the Type 051B --- renders things like VDS not as efficient, probably the reason why it was removed. I don't know how quiet the 052D can be but the ship has two gas turbines, and that's going to create noise than the all diesel Type 054A when the GTs are running. The Type 054B might even be quieter if it uses an electric drive. I do think the 052D can shut off its GTs, go slow at tactical speed, and go all diesel or even just coast, to use its sonar and listen for submarines so the 052D isn't ASW incapable. I won't be surprised if the Type 056s are meant to be audibly stealthy ships for their ASW purpose.
Even if the 054X family are meant to be the PLAN's primary ASW, does not mean 052D and 056 are weak in ASW. The other two ships also add to the total ASW picture. The next batch of the 052D with the longer helicopter deck maybe intended for a bigger helicopter which may have potentially better ASW performance --- bigger radars and sonars, more torpedoes, greater endurance, more processing on board, etc,. That can give this ship an edge on ASW. Certainly would like to see if the Type 054B would feature a bigger helo deck.
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Perhaps I should have been more specific. I have already said multiple times that frigate classes (such as the 054A) would naturally assume the primary ASW mission in a PLAN CBG and that destroyers would naturally assume the primary AAW mission in the same CBG. Frigates for ASW because ASW shouldn't have to be done by destroyers when a smaller cheaper and more numerous vessel could be doing it, and destroyers for AAW because that's what they are best suited for. However, taken individually outside the context of a CBG the 054A IMO has AAW as its strongest feature. The latest 054A+ may tip this balance in favor of ASW given its added VDS array, but the 054A is far more numerous in the PLAN's ORBAT, so let's not lump all 054 iterations into the same category because they are not the same.
I don't agree that the 054A necessarily has a "hardware advantage" over the 052D. Very few navies in the world even use ASW depth charge launchers due to their extremely limited utility. Even within the PLAN itself these launchers are not widespread if considered classwise. Given their range they certainly could not be considered to be offensive ASW weapons by any stretch of the imagination, so in subhunting they are certainly not superior to destroyers.
If we're calling it 054A+ to differentiate it from 054A then that is true, but that designation doesn't seem to have caught on much, nor from the Chinese language big shrimps that I can see.
Instead, I consider the current production 054As to be the new 054A "standard" and ships before hull 17 I consider to be "older 054As".
The 054A+/VDS equipped 054A have been every ship built since hull 17 to hull 30; i.e.: 14 hulls out of 30. That is two more older of the non-VDS equipped 054As than the newer VDS equipped standard, so not exactly "far more numerous" IMO.
I'd say it's fairly reasonable to consider the VDS equipped 054A to now be the "standard" that we speak of now when we refer to 054A.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
By that logic, the 055s should be spearheading the ASW work? The bigger the hunter, the more valuable of a target it becomes itself.
An 052C would be a target worth a sub giving up its stealth to have a pop at. Using 052Cs or 055 for ASW would only mean those valuable AD DDGs get attacked by enemy subs with potential losses that significantly degrades both the ASW and AAW elements of the fleet.
With the long range of PLAN ASROCs, there is no reason why the 052s and 055s could not sit further in and do the shooting once the 054As and/or 056s have flushed out an enemy subs.
There is simply no need to make those valuable ships so exposed to enemy sub attacks when you can have had the advantage of their firepower and helicopters support without needing to put them significantly at risk.
The 054A and 056s will be the primary surface ASW workhorses of a PLAN task group operating within the first, and maybe even the second island chains.
Beyond that, the 056s’ endurance may become an issue, but then the only other place a PLAN fleet might realistically fight further from the mainland would be the SCS, but China’s newly built islands there should be more than offset the 056s range limitations by allowing the PLAN to forward deploy them in significant numbers and then rotate in and out of the PLAN fleet orbat as their fuel, provisions and munitions situation demands.
The thing is, we haven't fully confirmed Yu-8 launch from a U-VLS on Type 052D, as the PLAN has never shown this in public, even if it is well within the realm of paper capability and possibility, and I cannot imagine it not being so. To put a Yu-8 on a U-VLS cell means one less HQ-9B, YJ-18 or maybe DH-10 though. Yu-8 on a 052D doesn't give a range advantage over a Yu-8 on a 054A. Another thing is that the 054A has the extra option of using the new Yu-11. The problem I see with the Yu-8 with U-VLS is that U-VLS is oversized for the Yu-8, but the Yu-8 is too big to pack more than one. Given the tasks that falls upon the 052D, I don't expect the 052D to be given any more Yu-8 or CY-5s than a 054A. The lack of public demonstration or confirmation can also be telling on how the PLAN plans to use the 052D or the level of emphasis the 054A has for ASW work. I would think that the 052D helps cover the 054A from aerial attacks, while the 054A hunts for subs.
Still, we have to account that the next batch of 052D with the extended hanger decks can allow for a larger and more sophisticated ASW helicopter, that greatly improves the ASW capabilities for these ships, but we can't rule out that the 054B might also have extended helo decks for such helos.
Another factor is that in the future, as more 055s roll in, the mission structure for the ships begins to change. Its just like older destroyers, are becoming de-tiered to frigate like tasks. The 055s will increasingly take over the primary AAW close escort roles of the carriers from the 052Ds, which in turns frees the 052Ds to do hunter killer ASW missions with 054A/Bs. The 052Ds (and 052E) might become more "frigate like" in their missions, as over time once again, the guidepost between "destroyer" and "frigate" shifts upward. Its not hard to see the 052C/D/Es acting as frigate leaders for frigate hunter packs.