054/A FFG Thread II

[Iron Man]

I think the VLS will be retained as well as much of the ship. The upgraded will be centered replacing the current mast with an integrated mast. The integrated mast will have four fixed panels of X band AESA, necessary for tracking and target illumination for the HHQ-16. The X band will also replace the following current radars on the Type 054A: the Type 347G radar for the gunnery; the Type 366 radar for surface search, track and ASM fire control, and the Orekhs used for target illumination and which appears to have some tracking purposes as well. The Orekhs are the biggest bottleneck to the previous system; each appears to have two channels for missile control and can track two targets within the same hemisphere, and with two at each side, will only allow for four targets engaged with one missile each or two targets engaged with two missiles each. Furthermore, the illuminators appear to have a slant range of around 70 to 74 km, which means that anymore ballistic improvement on the HHQ-16's flight performance is totally useless when the illuminating beam can't reach any further.

After that, there is the question of an S or C band radar that can be utilized as a supplementary for air and sea search with track. There hasn't been a new design revealed that will be SAMPSON or Kronos like, or if the PLAN may cheap out instead and use a Type 360 family radar (Type 363 or 364), or even the Type 382 Top plate. The C or S band can have two possible locations, one on the top of the main mast, and if not, on top of the second mast near the funnel. More on the new generation S band later.

Then depending where the S or C band is located, the ECM/ECCM tower can either be located on top of the mast or on the second mast near the funnel.

On the new generation frigate scaled AESA S-band, I was thinking of using the face of the Type 346 SAPAR, with either single faced, ala Kronos, or dual faced, ala SAMPSON. The unit rotates, and is enclosed inside a spherical radome. One other alternative is a naval version of the Type 305A acquisition radar. If this might be a bit big to put on top of the primary mast, then maybe on the secondary mast, in a layout similar to the APAR/SMART-L relationship on the Sachsen class frigates.

The 054B could easily just retain the Type 382 as the main VSR. OTOH I could also easily see them replacing that with something even lower band, like the Type 517B Yagi metric wave radar on the 052Ds. It's old school and has poor resolution but the PLAN has nothing better currently to detect stealth targets, and it could probably cue the X-band AESA to a target area to concentrate scans in that direction. The 382 will not be effective at all against such targets, or any other S- or C-band radars.

The new rack frames on the Type 051B upgrade gives us a clue how the ASM fit on the Type 054A refit might appear. However, due to the increased size and weight of the YJ-18s, the complement of ASMs will be down from 8 to 4. I do think these racks will still allow the option of installing YJ-83s and Yu-8s in their original number.

There is pretty much no reason not to keep 8 slant launchers, assuming they even intend to keep any at all. The additional bulk of the YJ-18 launchers would be so minimal that even the 054A without redesign might be able to accommodate them. In general I think the design of the 054B is more likely to be "inspired by" the 054A than a simple weapons and sensor upgrade, and so the designers will have the ability to create the space necessary to house all the new equipment, including the turbine(s), diesels, IEP system, radars, weapons, and new combat data system.

On wondering if the HQ-9 can integrate with a 054A Refit or 054B with hypothetical U-VLS, each HQ-9 missile has a diameter of around .45m and a length of 6.8m. This could fit on the shortened 7m version of the U-VLS though the actual VLS should be longer than its 7m cel to fit the compressed gas underneath the cel. Of if we assume that the canister needs to contain the compressed gas at the bottom, the canister would have to be longer than 7m and would fit in the 9m cel.

To support the HQ-9's terminal guidance, C band support would be needed and that can only take place as small, fixed faced panels on the integrated mast. This can be arranged like:

Single or Dual faced S band, likely octagon shaped, a downscaled version of the Type 346, set on a rotating mount, with a protective radome. (Long Range Search and Track).
Below it, on the integrated mast,
Four fixed faced C band array (Search, Track, HQ-9 terminal guidance) then
Four fixed faced X band array (Low surface sea skimmer and ship Search, Track, HQ-16 terminal guidance, gunnery support, ASM support).

Not coincidentally, this layout supports that 3D CG design posted previously.

That would be a very expensive design for a mass-produced frigate. I think it's far more likely the X-band AESA would be the sole radar or that it would be paired with a lower-frequency radar in the L-band, VHF, or UHF bands than one in the C- or S-band. As for the HHQ-9, the 054B should just have no part of that. It's a frigate, not a pocket destroyer like the European "frigates".

 

[Tam]

The 054B could easily just retain the Type 382 as the main VSR. OTOH I could also easily see them replacing that with something even lower band, like the Type 517B Yagi metric wave radar on the 052Ds. It's old school and has poor resolution but the PLAN has nothing better currently to detect stealth targets, and it could probably cue the X-band AESA to a target area to concentrate scans in that direction. The 382 will not be effective at all against such targets, or any other S- or C-band radars.


There is pretty much no reason not to keep 8 slant launchers, assuming they even intend to keep any at all. The additional bulk of the YJ-18 launchers would be so minimal that even the 054A without redesign might be able to accommodate them. In general I think the design of the 054B is more likely to be "inspired by" the 054A than a simple weapons and sensor upgrade, and so the designers will have the ability to create the space necessary to house all the new equipment, including the turbine(s), diesels, IEP system, radars, weapons, and new combat data system.


That would be a very expensive design for a mass-produced frigate. I think it's far more likely the X-band AESA would be the sole radar or that it would be paired with a lower-frequency radar in the L-band, VHF, or UHF bands than one in the C- or S-band. As for the HHQ-9, the 054B should just have no part of that. It's a frigate, not a pocket destroyer like the European "frigates".

I thought about different configuration scenarios.

1. New Type X band unit only.

The point of this is to level the cost after the high investment on the new radar. The reason why I am not in favor of this is that, every PLAN design, going all the way back to the Type 052, tend to feature radar redundancy. The 054A features three redundant radars that have overlapping search and tracking functions --- the Type 382, the Type 364 and the Type 366. PLAN ships also feature purpose minded radars to distribute tasks, while having adding more tracking redundancy, Type 366 for ASM, the Type 347G for gunnery and the Orekhs for target illumination. Both the Type 347G and the Orekhs should also have tracking. Having the X band AESA only would be handing the radar too much tasks. The New Type X band should try to eliminate the Orekhs, the Type 347G and the Type 366, making it more invested in fire control and high resolution tracking, thus allowing for additional radars to be more concentrated on search and track.

2. New Type X band and Type 364.

Quite a bit more probable now. The Type 364 can either be on the top of the mast or still be in its original place at the second mast at the funnel.

3. New Type X band and Type 382.

Type 382 at its original top mast position, or at the second mast near the funnel, ala Type 051C.

4. New Type X band, Type 382 and Type 364.

This is almost back to the original 054A, with Type 382 at the top, 364 at the rear mast, but the central mast tower is now thicker and wider, to accommodate four faced X band.

A variation to this, is the Type 364 at the top, and Type 382 at the rear mast, ala Type 051C. This is in consideration that if the Type 382 and the New Type X band is on the same tower, it might result in being top heavy, and exchanging the positions of the 364 and 382 could lower the center of gravity on the main mast.


5. This time, going a bit more far out, the New Type X band is matched with either a naval version of Type 305A, which is an S band AESA. Type 305A is an acquisition radar to support HQ-9 batteries, and is like the Chinese equivalent to Green Pine. The Type 305 naval variation would be on the second or rear mast.

6. Matching the New Type X band with a naval version of Type 120. Type 120 is an L band search and acquisition radar using FRESCAN principles, like the Type 382. This gives you an X and L dual band partnership similar to the Sachsen class. The Type 120 naval variation would be situated on the second or rear mast.

7. With regards to the configuration that uses HQ-9, U-VLS, an S, X and C band, there was something that I was contemplating and that is the possible end of the Type 052D contract. I don't think the PLAN might continue with both "destroyer" types, which sounds quite lavish for any navy. I would think the 052D would wind down and I don't expect a Type 052E successor. In order to keep a two ship structure with the Type 055, the Type 054B would have to step up quite a bit, though not completely replicating the Type 052D's combat capability, but to some extent partially replace it with an overlap on the lower level. The Type 055 would replace it on the higher level. If this configuration would have higher initial costs, the capacity to further mass produce HQ-9, U-VLS, and the associated radars would reduce all their costs, which further spreads to savings also for the Type 055. I would think that continuing to build three types of main surface combatants would even be more expensive, than a Type 054B that replaces the Type 054A and the Type 052D on a lower overlap. There is also the associated logistics cost for having too many ship classes. Whether a revamp on the class structure on the PLAN may also have some effect on the Type 056 successor, that's also a possibility.

With regards to Type 517, I would suppose the absence of this on the Type 055 means that whatever is on that ship, has a good confidence on detecting VLO targets, that you can afford an omission of UHF/VHF. That suggests that one of the radars, whether its the S band or the X band, or both radars, have a tremendous increase in gain, power and sensitivity (GaN?). That may probably make Type 517 moot, and having a naval Type 305A or Type 120 would further add to the search capabilities against LO targets.

The new frigate should be more concerned about detecting and engaging LO antiship missiles like LRASM or NSM. I would question both the Type 364 and Type 382's ability to do just that against stealthy sea skimmers but if I underestimate both these radar's capabilities, then there won't be a problem for them retaining their place in the new frigate.

 

[Iron Man]

1. New Type X band unit only.

The point of this is to level the cost after the high investment on the new radar. The reason why I am not in favor of this is that, every PLAN design, going all the way back to the Type 052, tend to feature radar redundancy. The 054A features three redundant radars that have overlapping search and tracking functions --- the Type 382, the Type 364 and the Type 366. PLAN ships also feature purpose minded radars to distribute tasks, while having adding more tracking redundancy, Type 366 for ASM, the Type 347G for gunnery and the Orekhs for target illumination. Both the Type 347G and the Orekhs should also have tracking. Having the X band AESA only would be handing the radar too much tasks. The New Type X band should try to eliminate the Orekhs, the Type 347G and the Type 366, making it more invested in fire control and high resolution tracking, thus allowing for additional radars to be more concentrated on search and track.

2. New Type X band and Type 364.

Quite a bit more probable now. The Type 364 can either be on the top of the mast or still be in its original place at the second mast at the funnel.

3. New Type X band and Type 382.

Type 382 at its original top mast position, or at the second mast near the funnel, ala Type 051C.

4. New Type X band, Type 382 and Type 364.

This is almost back to the original 054A, with Type 382 at the top, 364 at the rear mast, but the central mast tower is now thicker and wider, to accommodate four faced X band.

A variation to this, is the Type 364 at the top, and Type 382 at the rear mast, ala Type 051C. This is in consideration that if the Type 382 and the New Type X band is on the same tower, it might result in being top heavy, and exchanging the positions of the 364 and 382 could lower the center of gravity on the main mast.


5. This time, going a bit more far out, the New Type X band is matched with either a naval version of Type 305A, which is an S band AESA. Type 305A is an acquisition radar to support HQ-9 batteries, and is like the Chinese equivalent to Green Pine. The Type 305 naval variation would be on the second or rear mast.

6. Matching the New Type X band with a naval version of Type 120. Type 120 is an L band search and acquisition radar using FRESCAN principles, like the Type 382. This gives you an X and L dual band partnership similar to the Sachsen class. The Type 120 naval variation would be situated on the second or rear mast.

An X-band AESA would certainly not be a replacement for the 366, as it uses surface wave propagation to achieve a several hundred km OTH range vs surface targets, something an X-band radar would not be able to utilize. This hypothetical X-band AESA would definitely make the Orekhs, the 347G, and the 364 totally unnecessary, however. Since neither the 366 or the X-band AESA are good at volume search, or at least long range air search, it would be ideal to have a separate volume search/early warning radar. As I mentioned, the 317 Yagi would fit this role nicely, with low resolution being the price to pay for good stealth detection. The Type 120 also seems to be a nice choice.

7. With regards to the configuration that uses HQ-9, U-VLS, an S, X and C band, there was something that I was contemplating and that is the possible end of the Type 052D contract. I don't think the PLAN might continue with both "destroyer" types, which sounds quite lavish for any navy. I would think the 052D would wind down and I don't expect a Type 052E successor. In order to keep a two ship structure with the Type 055, the Type 054B would have to step up quite a bit, though not completely replicating the Type 052D's combat capability, but to some extent partially replace it with an overlap on the lower level. The Type 055 would replace it on the higher level. If this configuration would have higher initial costs, the capacity to further mass produce HQ-9, U-VLS, and the associated radars would reduce all their costs, which further spreads to savings also for the Type 055. I would think that continuing to build three types of main surface combatants would even be more expensive, than a Type 054B that replaces the Type 054A and the Type 052D on a lower overlap. There is also the associated logistics cost for having too many ship classes. Whether a revamp on the class structure on the PLAN may also have some effect on the Type 056 successor, that's also a possibility.

With regards to Type 517, I would suppose the absence of this on the Type 055 means that whatever is on that ship, has a good confidence on detecting VLO targets, that you can afford an omission of UHF/VHF. That suggests that one of the radars, whether its the S band or the X band, or both radars, have a tremendous increase in gain, power and sensitivity (GaN?). That may probably make Type 517 moot, and having a naval Type 305A or Type 120 would further add to the search capabilities against LO targets.

The new frigate should be more concerned about detecting and engaging LO antiship missiles like LRASM or NSM. I would question both the Type 364 and Type 382's ability to do just that against stealthy sea skimmers but if I underestimate both these radar's capabilities, then there won't be a problem for them retaining their place in the new frigate.

The rumor mills lately don't seem to support your confidence in the end of the 052 series, and have been suggesting specifically that a 052E is actually in the works. The PLAN won't continue with "both" "destroyer" types, since one is actually a cruiser being called a destroyer. You can call a cat a dog if you want, but it's still a cat. If the 052E turns up in the next several years, quite a few military enthusiasts' endorsement of a two-tier PLAN fleet structure will evaporate. We will see a 054A/B frigate, 052C/D/E destroyer, and 055 cruiser (oh I'm sorry, "large destroyer") fleet structure. I think that you are also way overplaying the "logistics cost" for multiple ship classes. The PLAN will have 4-5 surface combatant classes for the next few decades regardless of what it decides to do in 2018.

In any case, such a fleet structure will not require any 054B to step up to the fleet air defense role, not least because such a role is unbefitting a ship with a ~5,000t displacement almost certainly tasked primarily with ASW and secondarily with local (medium-range) air defense.

As for the 517, you aren't really trying to compare the radar of a 12,000t ship to that of a 5,000t ship, right? At most the 054B will have an X-band AESA, and we know that stealth fighters are designed specifically to maximally defeat X-band emissions, with progressive degradations in VLO capability as the enemy radar frequency decreases such that by the time you get to UHF and VHF, stealth features will be rendered almost totally useless. If the 055 has a capability vs stealth fighters, it's probably coming from a combination of the lower S-band 346X AESA coupled with the fact that it is probably a GaN-based radar meaning higher resolution at longer ranges. Outside of the essentially zero chance that the 054B will show up with a large quadruple fixed-panel S-band AESA like what we see on the 055, it will not otherwise have a good anti-stealth radar. Hence my suggestion that it use the 317, or maybe a navalized Type 120.

 

[Tam]

Type 366 is heavily derived (outright copied might be a better phrase for it) from the Mineral ME aka Bandstand radar of the Sovremenny class destroyers, which also gave the Top Plate (Type 382) search and the Orekh MR90 Front Dome illumination radars. It works on X band for its active mode, but its passive mode supports a much wider range of frequencies.

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The Chinese version improves on the Russian model by having both active and passive modes working simultaneously.

Another similar radar would be the 3TS-25E Garpun. This is used with Russian corvettes and frigates, as well as exported warships.

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This is what the active mode of these radars does.

Mineral ME Active Radar. (I band)

"The Active Radar Channel is intended to perform the following tasks:

• search, detection, tracking, recognition, classification and determining coordinates of surface targets;
• receiving and processing radar data from airborne remote surveillance system;
• target designation for own missile weapon, ships of Task Force and coastal missile system by DEORdr."

Garpun Active Radar. (I band)

• acquisition, automatic tracking and determination of their coordinates of surface targets by active channels;

Mineral ME passive radar (D, E, F, G, H, I band)

The Passive Radar Channel provides for:

• over-the-horizon detection of the radars emission;
• determining coordinates of the emitting radars by triangulation;
• targets classification according to the type emitting radar;
• target designation for missile weapon.

Garpun Passive Radar (complete waveband coverage including centrimetric and decimetric)

• detection, classification and determination of their coordinates of surface targets based on their radars emissions using passive channels;

I don't really consider the new generation X-band AESA to be hypothetical. I would think this already exists in the integrated mast on the Type 055.

This new X-band AESA radar would, if not should, substitute, for all but only the active functions on the Type 366 or Mineral ME/Bandstand radar. Should note that surface targets include sea skimmers, as well as small boats.

The Type 055 however, no longer includes the Type 366. Its possible, that the ship would have transferred OTH passive detection capabilities to another radar, probably the main array itself or to an omnidirectional antenna. That's assuming that this functionality is still there, and is not replaced by other OTH search and targeting methods. I look at the Type 055 for omnidirectional antennas, they are set on this stick straight up the main tower. This could also be ECM/ECCM, but passive detection duties tend to be in the ECM/ECCM department. The tall height of the "stick" above the integrated mast is ideal for peering down the horizon to extend its coverage.

The Type 517 Yagi or Knife Rest radar can fit on a frigate, and it has served on duty with the Type 053H3. I think that would be a light weight and inexpensive option to add to any ship and won't be intrusive if noticeable at all. I like to see the use of a large FRESCAN L-band, Type 120 reminds me of the SMART-L used on the Sachsen class frigates that also use the X-band APAR. Some version of the SMART-L are used on other frigates and even on the new QE aircraft carrier.

An S-band doesn't have to be a large fix faced array. You can have a small rotating one using a phase array if economy is a consideration. One radar I have in mind is something similar to the Thales SMART-S radar. Chinese shipbuilders should have some experience and knowledge of this, as this is the radar used on the export C28 frigates for Algeria, basically Type 054s with this radar. I also like the fact that the export frigate has a thick meaty based mast that can support weight; its not hard to see how it can grow into a fully integrated mast. The ship also conceals its thermal signature and its funnel better than the Type 054A.

 

[by78]

Another day, another 054A is commissioned, this time into the North Sea Fleet based in Dalian. Ship name is Ri Zhao (日照), literally means Sunshine, but of course, it's also the name of the Chinese city this ship is named after.

 

[asif iqbal]

Excellent

26th commissioned

Hopefully they can get 3 more done this year add to that 599 and 500

We have now ran out of pennants for 5xx so 29th unit we wait and see

29th should also be commissioned this year

Then we get 3 launched in 2018 to complete the order for 24+8= 32 units

So far in 11 years they have launched 29 that’s 2.6 per year

Same rate as DDG

 

[Iron Man]

Type 366 is heavily derived (outright copied might be a better phrase for it) from the Mineral ME aka Bandstand radar of the Sovremenny class destroyers, which also gave the Top Plate (Type 382) search and the Orekh MR90 Front Dome illumination radars. It works on X band for its active mode, but its passive mode supports a much wider range of frequencies.

Yes I know full well the origins of the 366. It doesn't change the fact that OTH target detection via surface wave propagation is the primary purpose of having this particular radar set on PLAN ships. Its active function is duplicated by multiple other radars such as the 364 and even the 382. Its passive OTH function is its only unique purpose, and as I said, it cannot be replicated by an X-band array:

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Specifically:
Effect of frequency on ground wave propagation
As the wavefront of the ground wave travels along the Earth's surface it is attenuated. The degree of attenuation is dependent upon a variety of factors. Frequency of the radio signal is one of the major determining factor as losses rise with increasing frequency. As a result, it makes this form of propagation impracticable above the bottom end of the HF portion of the spectrum (3 MHz). Typically a signal at 3.0 MHz will suffer an attenuation that may be in the region of 20 to 60 dB more than one at 0.5 MHz dependent upon a variety of factors in the signal path including the distance. In view of this it can be seen why even high power HF radio broadcast stations may only be audible for a few miles from the transmitting site via the ground wave.

I don't really consider the new generation X-band AESA to be hypothetical. I would think this already exists in the integrated mast on the Type 055.

This new X-band AESA radar would, if not should, substitute, for all but only the active functions on the Type 366 or Mineral ME/Bandstand radar. Should note that surface targets include sea skimmers, as well as small boats.

I consider it hypothetical until a big shrimp or an official source points to that panel on the 055's mast and says "this is an X-band array". Because right now what we are doing is guessing at what all those panels on the 055 are for, and we really have no idea when it comes down to it. I would say there is a good chance the biggest panel on the mast is PROBABLY an X-band AESA, but this stems more from personal preference than anything else, and anyone who makes any kind of hard claim on that particular panel is smoking crack.

The Type 055 however, no longer includes the Type 366. Its possible, that the ship would have transferred OTH passive detection capabilities to another radar, probably the main array itself or to an omnidirectional antenna. That's assuming that this functionality is still there, and is not replaced by other OTH search and targeting methods. I look at the Type 055 for omnidirectional antennas, they are set on this stick straight up the main tower. This could also be ECM/ECCM, but passive detection duties tend to be in the ECM/ECCM department. The tall height of the "stick" above the integrated mast is ideal for peering down the horizon to extend its coverage.

It is also possible the 055 does not have OTH passive detection capabilities, or that the 366 has not yet been fitted onto the 055. Surface wave propagation is already fickle and depends heavily on environmental factors, so it would not surprise me if the PLAN decided to ditch this capability in the future.

An S-band doesn't have to be a large fix faced array. You can have a small rotating one using a phase array if economy is a consideration. One radar I have in mind is something similar to the Thales SMART-S radar. Chinese shipbuilders should have some experience and knowledge of this, as this is the radar used on the export C28 frigates for Algeria, basically Type 054s with this radar. I also like the fact that the export frigate has a thick meaty based mast that can support weight; its not hard to see how it can grow into a fully integrated mast. The ship also conceals its thermal signature and its funnel better than the Type 054A.

And yet there is no such radar for the PLAN that could fit on a 054A, which means it would have to be a new design, which we have not seen. I'm not saying it's impossible to see a new radar set appear on the 054B, but the bar is certainly set higher for you in that case. On the other hand I was pointing out your attempted comparison of the detection capabilities of a large vessel like the 055 with large power output sporting large arrays with a vessel in the 5,000t range and saying that they could have similar detection/tracking capabilities. They certainly could not. The 055 could MAYBE use its large S-band array with high power output to muscle its way past stealth features, but a 054B with a small rotating S-band array could not even remotely achieve anything similar, which means it's a sitting duck versus any incoming stealth fighter. In other words for a frigate like the 054B an X/S-band combo makes little to no sense, while an X/L or X/UHF combo is much more reasonable. This has always been a glaring weakness of the 054A in my view, and this capability gap could easily be closed with the introduction of the 054B with the right choice of radars.

 

[Tam]

Chance of Type 366 showing up on Type 055 is practically nil at this point. If the ship is still in fitting stage, and the Type 366 is still yet to be fitted, there would still be a place marked for it to be fitted.

Which is not present on the Type 055.

Which does leave you with two possibilities: Either the passive OTH and surface wave propagation is nixed by the PLAN, or the functionality is transferred to another radar or antenna.

Another PLAN surface combatant that does not have the Type 366.

Either the PLAN has a substitute for that OTH function, or they are calling it with another name.

 

[antiterror13]

Excellent

26th commissioned

Hopefully they can get 3 more done this year add to that 599 and 500

We have now ran out of pennants for 5xx so 29th unit we wait and see

29th should also be commissioned this year

Then we get 3 launched in 2018 to complete the order for 24+8= 32 units

So far in 11 years they have launched 29 that’s 2.6 per year

Same rate as DDG

Very good run for 054A ... much more than famous La Fayette-class frigate production run

 

[Iron Man]

Chance of Type 366 showing up on Type 055 is practically nil at this point. If the ship is still in fitting stage, and the Type 366 is still yet to be fitted, there would still be a place marked for it to be fitted.

Which is not present on the Type 055.

Which does leave you with two possibilities: Either the passive OTH and surface wave propagation is nixed by the PLAN, or the functionality is transferred to another radar or antenna.

Either the PLAN has a substitute for that OTH function, or they are calling it with another name.

Yes, the chance of the 366 showing up on the 055 is very low. I think it is more likely that the OTH passive detection capability has been deleted from the 055 than that it has been transferred to another radar set. The only possibility for a passive receiver at this point are the two large unknown panels on the port and starboard sides of the 055 underneath the bridge wings and the countermeasures launchers.