054/A FFG Thread II

[asif iqbal]

Type 054B nice !

Let's hope we see it soon

48 cell VLS would have been nice with increase in tonnage

But I guess the role of FFG is kept well in check

 

[Iron Man]

Let's put it this way, I would consider 054B displacing at least 200-300 tons more than 054A at full to be a significant enough difference that is beyond "about the same".
If you consider that to be within your "about the same" region, then this probably comes down to our differing interpretation of what "about the same" should be able to reasonably mean for a ship of this size.


But at the end of the day, fzgfzy doesn't say how much 054B will displace nor does he give us a gauge of it indirectly such as by saying how much it may displace relative to 054A (same, more or less), only saying that 054B displaces a few hundred tons less than the "original".
I consider that to be quite vague if our purpose is judging how much 054B may end up displacing.

200-300 tons added to a 4,000 ton ship is only a 5-7.5% increase. I'm not sure how this translates into a "significant enough difference" for you, but whatever. My own inclination is something more on the order of 15-20% difference as being "significant". In any case, what he meant by his statement is most obviously that the 054B is about the same as the 054A, so there is no need to provide a displacement since we already know what the 054A displaces. The 054B WAS going to displace a few hundred tons more due to new propulsion, but they designed that increase away. What does that mean? It means that increase basically never happened. What does that mean? It means that the 054B is about the same displacement as the 054A. This is not rocket science here.

 

[Blitzo]

200-300 tons added to a 4,000 ton ship is only a 5-7.5% increase. I'm not sure how this translates into a "significant enough diffe054B ence" for you, but whatever.

I consider it to be fairly significant. the difference between a Flight IIA burke (9200 tons) and a III burke (9800 tons) is about a 6.5% increase from IIA's displacement.

My own inclination is something more on the order of 15-20% difference as being "significant". In any case, what he meant by his statement is most obviously that the 054B is about the same as the 054A, so there is no need to provide a displacement since we already know what the 054A displaces. The 054B WAS going to displace a few hundred tons more due to new propulsion, but they designed that increase away. What does that mean? It means that increase basically never happened. What does that mean? It means that the 054B is about the same displacement as the 054A. This is not rocket science here.

Actually we don't know what he really meant, because he said 054B's displacement was originally going to be a few hundred tons heavier, but we don't know what that "heavier" is compared to -- is it compared to 054A or is it compared to 054B's displacement now.
This is the sentence where he refers to this displacement matter: 吨位本来因为改系统应该是增加了几百吨，据说很可能是没有，哈哈军工兔牛大了

Unfortunately he does not specify what the "增加了几百吨" of the "本来" design is actually in reference to.
If he said in that post or later says that it is indeed in reference to 054A's displacement then I would consider it settled.
But as it is, I consider it to be ambiguous, and that he could be referencing what 054B's original displacement would've meant to be relative to what it ended up being.


Who knows, maybe 054B's displacement really is about the same or perhaps even the same as 054As. That doesn't bother me. But what bothers me is the degree of confidence to which we can make a claim based on the evidence that we have, and right now I think the phrasing of his statement on 054B's displacement is far from clear on the matter and that is why I think the matter on what 054B's displacement really is is still rather unsettled.

One thing we can settle is that 054B won't displace 6000 tons given fzgfzy directly contradicted that particular claim that someone brought up. But whether 054B will displace 200 tons, 300 tons, or 500 tons more than 054A or maybe only a few dozen tons more, is something we do not know IMO.

 

[Jura The idiot]

... This is not rocket science here.

... something we do not know IMO.

I've been following this discussion (for me it was quite entertaining and I wonder if it's not possible to contact that poster
(fzgfzy

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to the extent I can tell

and ask directly about the displacement figure; would he surely ignore? or is it technically impossible due to like membership there?

 

[FORBIN]

If that's the news, it's not so exciting. It confirms IEP but also disappoints with similar tonnage. In that case I don't see how a 054B could be loading the universal VLS unless it's only 2 modules instead of 4. A "major breakthrough" in ASW compared to the 054A would be 32 universal cells (8 for 32 quad-packed MRSAMs, 8 for ASCMs, and 16 for the winged VL ASW missiles), 2 hangars for 2 ASW helos, new bow sonar, and VDS + TAS. That would make it a truly devastating ASW frigate while retaining full AAW and ASuW capabilities.

New variant not new Class ... but if the size of the hull is similar also 1 hangar etc... any reason for displacement difference ?

 

[Hyperwarp]

But 054A already have a universal VLS ...

Universal VLS on the 054A? Not sure about that. It can hot launch HHQ-16 but other than that I have only heard of anti submarine rockets that could be launched from that VLS.

In-contrast the VLS in the 052D has a true universal VLS. It can launch anti-air, anti-ship, anti-sub and ground attack missiles.

 

[Max Demian]

Universal VLS on the 054A? Not sure about that. It can hot launch HHQ-16 but other than that I have only heard of anti submarine rockets that could be launched from that VLS.

In-contrast the VLS in the 052D has a true universal VLS. It can launch anti-air, anti-ship, anti-sub and ground attack missiles.

Just because we have not seen 054A launch more than 2 different types of missiles from its VLS does not mean it is not capable of launching more types. The very fact that it can launch >1 type of missile gives credence to the hypothesis that it is be capable of launching >2 types, hence universal.

Information on how deep the tubes of the 054A VLS system are, would give us an idea of what other missiles would come into consideration. If the Talwar class ( a ship of comparable size) can fit missiles as long as Kubs ...), perhaps then the 054A might as well.

 

[Max Demian]

Information on how deep the tubes of the 054A VLS system are, would give us an idea of what other missiles would come into consideration. If the Talwar class ( a ship of comparable size) can fit missiles as long as Kubs ...), perhaps then the 054A might as well.

I meant 054B in the last sentence: i.e. that the revision might feature a longer tube version of what is essentially the same VLS.

 

[Iron Man]

I consider it to be fairly significant. the difference between a Flight IIA burke (9200 tons) and a III burke (9800 tons) is about a 6.5% increase from IIA's displacement.



Actually we don't know what he really meant, because he said 054B's displacement was originally going to be a few hundred tons heavier, but we don't know what that "heavier" is compared to -- is it compared to 054A or is it compared to 054B's displacement now.
This is the sentence where he refers to this displacement matter: 吨位本来因为改系统应该是增加了几百吨，据说很可能是没有，哈哈军工兔牛大了

Unfortunately he does not specify what the "增加了几百吨" of the "本来" design is actually in reference to.
If he said in that post or later says that it is indeed in reference to 054A's displacement then I would consider it settled.
But as it is, I consider it to be ambiguous, and that he could be referencing what 054B's original displacement would've meant to be relative to what it ended up being.


Who knows, maybe 054B's displacement really is about the same or perhaps even the same as 054As. That doesn't bother me. But what bothers me is the degree of confidence to which we can make a claim based on the evidence that we have, and right now I think the phrasing of his statement on 054B's displacement is far from clear on the matter and that is why I think the matter on what 054B's displacement really is is still rather unsettled.

One thing we can settle is that 054B won't displace 6000 tons given fzgfzy directly contradicted that particular claim that someone brought up. But whether 054B will displace 200 tons, 300 tons, or 500 tons more than 054A or maybe only a few dozen tons more, is something we do not know IMO.

The problem with your theory is that it requires there to be a 054B that originally did NOT have IEP that subsequently displaced several hundred tons more WITH IEP that was then 'fixed' with a redesign. This to me is entirely NOT the most reasonable assumption as IEP has been associated with the 054B for a long time. Though it is within the realm of possibility, it is obviously not the default assumption.

 

[Iron Man]

New variant not new Class ... but if the size of the hull is similar also 1 hangar etc... any reason for displacement difference ?

Well if the ship for example has a fixed 4-panel array instead of a rotating array, that might add some extra mass. Or if the 32-cell VLS is the (larger) universal kind, that might also add mass.