054/A FFG Thread II

[tphuang]

The rank of all DDGs in PLAN are the same.

As the new DDGs commissioning, the Destroyer squadrons of PLAN are expanding. The first decommissioned 051 class was 105 Jinan, decommissioned in late 2007, at that time new DDGs already commissioned for a while. Now the 2nd destroyer squadron in South Sea Fleet got 2 054As, their 051 161 Changsha decommissioned, 162 Nanning is said to be decommissioned soon. But none of the Jianghu in this squadron decommissioned.

Anyway, the Jianghus will be decommissioned sooner or later. But currently most Jianghus (Jianghu II, III and V) are less than 30 years old, and they are much cheaper to operate than 051s.

Currently the 053s that decommissioned were belong to base units. I think PLAN is cutting base units down while expanding sea going units.

Lol, SSF is also getting the next 2 054As, so they will have 4. All the new DDGs are also going into SSF. Actually, the new DDGs got added into far before those 051s got retired. So, it follows that DDGs get added first and then DDGs get retired first. And then FFGs get added and FFGs get retired.

And I don't think you get the real story here, which is the tremendous expansion of SSF. Why is that happening? Well, the reason is that we are going to have an ocean going fleet split out of the SSF. You might want to stop accepting what people tell you on Chinese forums and think a little bit.

 

[szbd]

Lol, SSF is also getting the next 2 054As, so they will have 4. All the new DDGs are also going into SSF. Actually, the new DDGs got added into far before those 051s got retired. So, it follows that DDGs get added first and then DDGs get retired first. And then FFGs get added and FFGs get retired.

And I don't think you get the real story here, which is the tremendous expansion of SSF. Why is that happening? Well, the reason is that we are going to have an ocean going fleet split out of the SSF. You might want to stop accepting what people tell you on Chinese forums and think a little bit.

Well, every fleet has 2 destroyer squadrons, one with new DDGs, one with old ones. SSF is still about the same size with other 2 fleets. I heard 161 retired and 162 is retiring, and that squadron got 2 054As, then I think 054As are replacing their 051s.

The units who decommissioned 053s didn't get new ship.

 

[szbd]

Lol, SSF is also getting the next 2 054As, so they will have 4. All the new DDGs are also going into SSF. Actually, the new DDGs got added into far before those 051s got retired. So, it follows that DDGs get added first and then DDGs get retired first. And then FFGs get added and FFGs get retired.

And I don't think you get the real story here, which is the tremendous expansion of SSF. Why is that happening? Well, the reason is that we are going to have an ocean going fleet split out of the SSF. You might want to stop accepting what people tell you on Chinese forums and think a little bit.

And what new DDGs? Not started building yet I think.

Anyway, my point is

1. eventually, all DD squadrons will have new DDGs and 054As (of later version of 054A) , that will be maybe 10 years later.

2. The 051s in current DD squadrons will retire faster than their 053s and 054As will commission faster than future DDGs. Therefore, it looks like 054s are replacing 051s.

 

[joshuatree]

All 051s are built before mid 80s, except 166, which is a revised version. The oldest one in service now is 107 Yinchuan, commissioned in 1975.

Actually 109, 110, 165, 166 received mod 4 between 99-03. There are plenty of Perry class frigates in the US Navy that date back to the mid 80s that are still fully active.

I think one needs to look a little deeper and analyze what fleet size does PLAN picture for the future? In light of a contracting global economy and a growing naval ambition, I don't see the 054 replacing the 051s. There are many secondary and reserve roles the 051s can still serve.

Just thinking of the Spratly issue, 051s still can stand up well against the navies of Vietnam, Philippines, etc.

 

[tphuang]

And what new DDGs? Not started building yet I think.

Anyway, my point is

1. eventually, all DD squadrons will have new DDGs and 054As (of later version of 054A) , that will be maybe 10 years later.

2. The 051s in current DD squadrons will retire faster than their 053s and 054As will commission faster than future DDGs. Therefore, it looks like 054s are replacing 051s.

052B, 052C, 051C and Sovs, they got plenty of new DDGs recently.. They look like they are going to build 20-30 054 series ships. by the end of this year, they will have 10 054/As either in service or on sea trial, no where near that number of 051s are retired. These are facts.

You are not getting any of the picture here. The 054As currently being built have a totally different role than what the old DDGs and FFGs in PLAN were intended for. From that stand point, the number of each types of ships required are going to change. For example, if 1 054A can carry out the coastal defense duties of 2 053, you don't really need 2 054As. But, if you are building 2 carrier groups and that needs 4 054As each, then you will need at least 8 054As for that. The entire philosophy of PLAN has changed, so the number of ships from different class will also change.

 

[F40Racer]

Actually 109, 110, 165, 166 received mod 4 between 99-03. There are plenty of Perry class frigates in the US Navy that date back to the mid 80s that are still fully active.

I think one needs to look a little deeper and analyze what fleet size does PLAN picture for the future? In light of a contracting global economy and a growing naval ambition, I don't see the 054 replacing the 051s. There are many secondary and reserve roles the 051s can still serve.

Just thinking of the Spratly issue, 051s still can stand up well against the navies of Vietnam, Philippines, etc.

That's true. The last time I checked, the only major surfrace combatant in the Philippines navy is a WWII-era destroyer escort, weaker than a Jianhu-class frigate.

 

[Jeff Head]

There are plenty of Perry class frigates in the US Navy that date back to the mid 80s that are still fully active.

There were a total of 51 Oliver Hazard Perry FFGs built for the US Navy. Of those, 21 have been taken out of service leaving 30 still active. One of those was commissioned in 1979, all others were commissioned in the 1980s, throughout the decade.

The big issue with the Perrys is that the Standard missile SAM capability and the Harpoon ASM capabilites no longer exist on these vessels. They are now armed with a 76mm gun, a 20mm Phalanx, six MK-46 torpedos (two triple mounts), and can carry two Seahawk helos for Anti-sub work, and, in a pinch the helos can also conduct ASuW work with Penguin missiles.

They will make good ASW escorts for Phibrons, convoys and other vessels, good littoral water patrol craft to interdict drugs, pirates, or subs...but in a fight against ASuW missiles from other vessels...even other modern FFGs, they are now going to be seriously lacking.

The Australians and thr Turks have shown that there is a good modernization path for these vessels...but the US has chosen to increase its Arleigh Burke DDG fleet significantly instead with well over 50 already built, six more building, and planning for a total of 73 vessels.

 

[joshuatree]

They will make good ASW escorts for Phibrons, convoys and other vessels, good littoral water patrol craft to interdict dugs, pirates, or subs...but in a fight against ASuW missiles from other vessels...even other modern FFGs, they are now going to be seriously lacking.

The Australians and thr Turks have shown that there is a good modernization path for these vessels...but the US has chosen to increase its Arleigh Burke DDG fleet significantly instead with well over 50 already built, six more building, and planning for a total of 73 vessels.

Wonder if the 051s can make good escorts for the 071 / Phibron scenario?

Seems like presently, the USN has no intention of a frigate replacement, maybe being covered by more DDGs on one end and the LCS on the other end of the spectrum.

 

[aricho87]

The design and purpose of the OHP Frigate was for convoy duty against the much feared Soviet Sub forrces to get the army across the pond. With no threat or nothing similar to that appearing in the future the USN has no need for such a visatile platform but for rather more high intensity ships or much lower intensity ships ie increase in burkes and LCS platform.

 

[Jeff Head]

Wonder if the 051s can make good escorts for the 071 / Phibron scenario?

Seems like presently, the USN has no intention of a frigate replacement, maybe being covered by more DDGs on one end and the LCS on the other end of the spectrum.

Once they are fully outfitted with their various mission packs, I believe the LCS design will be more powerful than the current OHP design, even when it was fully outfitted.

In the ASW mode, the LCS will be as strong as, if not stronger than. the Perry, but with the RAM, though it will have no true area coverage, it's ability to stand as a point AAW defense for itself or for other vessels it is very close to will be agruably better than the point defense of the Perry as orignally outfitted.

And in the ASuW and AAW modes, it will be more powerful than the Perry was.

So, a couple of LCS vessels, one outfitted for ASW and the other for AAW will, IMHO, serve as good convoy escorts...plus they will be very excellent littoral water vessels.