054/A FFG Thread II

crobato

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I think another 6 054As would not be impossible for the next three years. Six 054As from 2007 to 2009 is quite fast in relation to how fast other ships are built elsewhere.

What may actually slow them down is their own technological progress. Like suddenly, you got a new radar design finally working and certified, and the big wigs decided to stop the remaining work for the other ships, so that the ship design has to be modified for the new radar system. Just a hypothetical example, but feasible.

If they know they can now build a better ship, there is no reason for them to continue building the old ones for the sake of beefing up their numbers.
 

Delbert

Junior Member
I think another 6 054As would not be impossible for the next three years. Six 054As from 2007 to 2009 is quite fast in relation to how fast other ships are built elsewhere.

What may actually slow them down is their own technological progress. Like suddenly, you got a new radar design finally working and certified, and the big wigs decided to stop the remaining work for the other ships, so that the ship design has to be modified for the new radar system. Just a hypothetical example, but feasible.

If they know they can now build a better ship, there is no reason for them to continue building the old ones for the sake of beefing up their numbers.

But we have to accept that any possible immediate crisis happens, though those are modern ships (Type 054A's), numbers will also matter. PLAN's current inventory of 30 Jianghu ships accounts more than 50% of its current frigate assets of a total of 49.

Just imagine and count, how many modern frigates do PLAN have?
 

crobato

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But we have to accept that any possible immediate crisis happens, though those are modern ships (Type 054A's), numbers will also matter. PLAN's current inventory of 30 Jianghu ships accounts more than 50% of its current frigate assets of a total of 49.

Just imagine and count, how many modern frigates do PLAN have?

Not very many. I would regard only the Jiangkais as fully modern. The Jiangweis are only semi-modern.

Most warships around the world aren't that modern either. Actually you do have a world wide situation where modern ships are replacing older ships in a pace that is never fast enough. Cannot build a modern warship for the same speed and rate of construction as older ships, nor can you build these ships with the same budget relative to currency value of that year.

You are facing a situation where as time goes, navies will get fewer and fewer ships, even though these ships are more capable than ever before.
 

tphuang

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They got only 2 shipyards that can build 054A. One of which is kind of slow (HP) and the other one had a crane collapsing and is busy building export ships, so that's why we haven't seen anything more recently. And with PLAN planning to build DDGs, nuclear submarines and an aircraft carrier, there is only so much money left for something in the 4000 ton displacement. Just look at how long it is taking US to build LCS.

I'm sure they have started a batch of 4 054As this time with slight modification from the first batch of 4. After this, they might move on to 054B with the next 4.
 

Delbert

Junior Member
They got only 2 shipyards that can build 054A. One of which is kind of slow (HP) and the other one had a crane collapsing and is busy building export ships, so that's why we haven't seen anything more recently.

If that is the case, I think upgrading of shipyards must be implemented too, so that in times of trouble, they can easily mass produce ships if needed.

Especially now that China is home to a large number of shipyards, if all of them can be fully utilized and maximized. China can easily establish itself to become to world's largest and most powerful Navy. "Especially during an arms race, if it happens again"

You are facing a situation where as time goes, navies will get fewer and fewer ships, even though these ships are more capable than ever before.

That is why when Navies become smaller, it losses a lot of capabilities.

Like it is more limited in patrolling the seas, though the ships are more capable they lack the necessary number to guard the shore. Probably a reason why pirate attacks in the seas are increasing. (Like in Somalia)

Second, it reduces the Navies capability to fight a multi front war. Honestly, if a crisis occurs in Taiwan strait, China will not only be facing the ROC fleet, but also fleets of US and Japan.

Thus China needs more modern and powerful ships.
 
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crobato

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If that is the case, I think upgrading of shipyards must be implemented too, so that in times of trouble, they can easily mass produce ships if needed.

The ship blueprints are transferable, and people can be trained. I have no doubt that for example, 054As can be built in Dalian if they truly wanted to.

An example of this is how the 022 Houbei has become a true national project. It seems every shipyard from north to south has pounded out a few of their own.

Especially now that China is home to a large number of shipyards, if all of them can be fully utilized and maximized. China can easily establish itself to become to world's largest and most powerful Navy. "Especially during an arms race, if it happens again"

I'm not sure if China has that overwhelming desire. So far they have matched the navy's growth with their increasing power status, but don't want to reach far into superpower status yet.

Money is a key issue. You got a country that is so obsessively focused on making a buck. Making a big navy does not make a buck, it tends to eat them. In the past, the overriding reason to create global navies, like the British fleet, the French fleet, the Spanish Galleon fleet, and other occasions in the past like the Phoenician fleet, the Carthagian navy and even the navy of the Song Dynasty, was to protect and enforce the trade routes, which is important for your economy. That's how you got the ROI (Return of Investment). Zheng He didn't get the ROI wanted by the Emperor so guess what they did to his fleet.

But this global order of free trade is already being enforced and protected by the US Navy, courtesy of Uncle Sam's wallet and the Bretton Woods agreement. The biggest loser was Britain, because in the past, the British used their fleets to enforce trade monopolies that in turn created the wealth of the British Empire, while their predatory actions on other fleets, like the Spanish, caused the downfall of those empires.

So the USN, in effect, followed by other navies like NATO's, are enforcing an existing world order that initially benefited the US, but is now strongly benefiting China in the bank account. China has over 1,800 merchant ships, for example, which is the world's sixth largest. The US merchant marine only has 400 plus ships, the UK 500 plus.

The Soviet Union and its Navy happens to be the antithesis, and seeks the destruction of this Mahanian free trade order. While the SU seeks to destroy, China on the other hand has profited from this existing order, so it stands that its primary intentions are better to preserve it, rather than destroy it.

If for some reason, the USN severely shrinks, and no one is playing global naval policeman, someone has to step up to do the dirty work. The typical Chinese fashion is to let someone do the dirty work before they are forced to do it themselves.
 
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tphuang

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If that is the case, I think upgrading of shipyards must be implemented too, so that in times of trouble, they can easily mass produce ships if needed.

Especially now that China is home to a large number of shipyards, if all of them can be fully utilized and maximized. China can easily establish itself to become to world's largest and most powerful Navy. "Especially during an arms race, if it happens again"
wartime will be a different story. You simply can't build ships at a random shipyard. Only certain shipyards in the country are qualified to build military grade ships. And only certain shipyards in China can deliver military grade ships in certain amount of time. If they really wanted more 054As, they'd just get HD and HP to build more ships at the same time. I mean they built 4 in one year. how much faster do you need it to be?
 

Delbert

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wartime will be a different story. You simply can't build ships at a random shipyard. Only certain shipyards in the country are qualified to build military grade ships. And only certain shipyards in China can deliver military grade ships in certain amount of time. If they really wanted more 054As, they'd just get HD and HP to build more ships at the same time. I mean they built 4 in one year. how much faster do you need it to be?

What I am suggesting was preparation for war time. We cannot determine when war will occur, by the time it came it will be too late if the shipyards are not all ready to handle mass production.

Even some are privately owned, it must be also fitted to meet some Naval requirements, surely all of them will be utilized to create naval ships during war, due to the need of protecting the country.

You will not be building merchant ships during war....
 

tphuang

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What I am suggesting was preparation for war time. We cannot determine when war will occur, by the time it came it will be too late if the shipyards are not all ready to handle mass production.

Even some are privately owned, it must be also fitted to meet some Naval requirements, surely all of them will be utilized to create naval ships during war, due to the need of protecting the country.

You will not be building merchant ships during war....
I don't think you appreciate the difference between military and civilian standard. Only the best shipyards in China are handling military grade ships right now. 022 is built in more than 5 shipyards across the country because it's a small and relatively simple ship to build. And there is basically only one shipyard in China that can build nuclear submarines. Now, as for trying to prepare for war time by making all of them capable of building naval ships. That's just too costly. These shipyards became capable because they already build high quality civilian ships compared to other Chinese shipyards. These guys can't be building military ships all the time, so they stay good at shipbuilding by building a lot of high quality civilian ships. If you don't have those, you don't have the money to keep all the skilled workers and high tech equipments.
 

Delbert

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I don't think you appreciate the difference between military and civilian standard. Only the best shipyards in China are handling military grade ships right now. 022 is built in more than 5 shipyards across the country because it's a small and relatively simple ship to build. And there is basically only one shipyard in China that can build nuclear submarines. Now, as for trying to prepare for war time by making all of them capable of building naval ships. That's just too costly. These shipyards became capable because they already build high quality civilian ships compared to other Chinese shipyards. These guys can't be building military ships all the time, so they stay good at shipbuilding by building a lot of high quality civilian ships. If you don't have those, you don't have the money to keep all the skilled workers and high tech equipments.

Of course we cannot condition all of them at the same time, it will be really too costly. But at least start conditioning a few shipyards to be ready.

Example was having at least 2 shipyards capable of building nuclear submarines.

4 shipyards for type 054A frigates.
 
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