052C/052D Class Destroyers

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
So even if overall US systems have superior performance than PLA ones ("F-35 vs J-20", "052D vs Burke" etc.)
interesting, to say the least, choice of examples of superior US systems.
I think the jet engine of the YJ-18 is based on reverse-engineered Tomahawk engines
There is a much, much more direct and obvious source of YJ-18 engine inspiration (as well as for the whole rocket).
For an export version of HHQ-9 it seems about right. Actual HHQ-9 should be around 300km.
There is little indication they're different.
There is this common concept that domestic versions are monkey versions multiplied by some modifier in key metrics.
While sometimes (for MCR-restricted articles) it's sorta true, for others it basically implies developing two separate products for one's own money just to worsen one's own commercial prospects. You can develop something else with this money in the first place.
No one does that - there are much more straightforward(and more effective) ways to protect domestic tech and ensure a competitive edge in case of conflict. And especially China doesn't - its way of protecting its tech is different.

Soviet Union is often mentioned as an example of special development monkey models - but SU typically messed up with electronics(used old/creatively simplified electronic blocks) and other older components(already developed!), not with developing different rocket motor and/or battery setups.
 

SquireAU

New Member
Registered Member
There is a much, much more direct and obvious source of YJ-18 engine inspiration (as well as for the whole rocket).
Interesting, could you point me to it?

I did a lot of research to establish that the estimates given by US sources (not just for range) are based on sloppy research, but all I could find for Chinese sources were blogposts and as is often the case there's no easy way to distill reliable information.

interesting, to say the least, choice of examples of superior US systems.
I didn't intend to suggest that, my main motivation is just to point out how stupidly ignorant almost all of the popular discussion on PLA systems is in the West: "our stuff is better because X" and direct comparisons are hugely annoying and a waste of time, regardless of whether it's copium or true.
But for the record, the AEGIS system on the Burke has at least one capability that the 052D does not currently have: ballistic missile defence with the SM-3.

And especially China doesn't - its way of protecting its tech is different.
I think there are quite a few examples of China exporting systems, especially missiles, that were developed but not adopted because they didn't meet PLA requirements. Thus exporting those would have been a way of recouperating development costs. The WS-1 & A-series MLRS come to mind that were developed for the PLA but exported (to Turkey & Belarus) while the PLA adopted the PHL-03 and PHL-16 instead.
 

sndef888

Captain
Registered Member
Interesting, could you point me to it?

I did a lot of research to establish that the estimates given by US sources (not just for range) are based on sloppy research, but all I could find for Chinese sources were blogposts and as is often the case there's no easy way to distill reliable information.


I didn't intend to suggest that, my main motivation is just to point out how stupidly ignorant almost all of the popular discussion on PLA systems is in the West: "our stuff is better because X" and direct comparisons are hugely annoying and a waste of time, regardless of whether it's copium or true.
But for the record, the AEGIS system on the Burke has at least one capability that the 052D does not currently have: ballistic missile defence with the SM-3.


I think there are quite a few examples of China exporting systems, especially missiles, that were developed but not adopted because they didn't meet PLA requirements. Thus exporting those would have been a way of recouperating development costs. The WS-1 & A-series MLRS come to mind that were developed for the PLA but exported (to Turkey & Belarus) while the PLA adopted the PHL-03 and PHL-16 instead.
I think it's based on the russian Klub
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Interesting, could you point me to it?

I did a lot of research to establish that the estimates given by US sources (not just for range) are based on sloppy research, but all I could find for Chinese sources were blogposts and as is often the case there's no easy way to distill reliable information.
Now infamous Kalibr/Club family (3M54 in submarine version).
China was its first foreign customer - and arguably was inspired by it the most.
I didn't intend to suggest that, my main motivation is just to point out how stupidly ignorant almost all of the popular discussion on PLA systems is in the West: "our stuff is better because X" and direct comparisons are hugely annoying and a waste of time, regardless of whether it's copium or true.
But for the record, the AEGIS system on the Burke has at least one capability that the 052D does not currently have: ballistic missile defence with the SM-3.
Well, indeed.
But just for the record - Sinoaegis is a massively newer system than the old baseline Aegis - just a few years older than the new baseline.
Since much of the upgrade is hardware-enabled software one (instead of pure hardware) - it's ironically a "catch-up/(attempt to)restore the lead" game for the US now.
And PLAN prints systems it has faith to print.
I think there are quite a few examples of China exporting systems, especially missiles, that were developed but not adopted because they didn't meet PLA requirements. Thus exporting those would have been a way of recouperating development costs. The WS-1 & A-series MLRS come to mind that were developed for the PLA but exported (to Turkey & Belarus) while the PLA adopted the PHL-03 and PHL-16 instead.
Yes, indeed - but it's a completely different approach.
China procures one candidate, and others seek export markets on their own.

It isn't a protection of the domestic candidate by being necessarily worse(in fact, quite the opposite often happens), it's protection by being different in the first place.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
interesting, to say the least, choice of examples of superior US systems.

There is a much, much more direct and obvious source of YJ-18 engine inspiration (as well as for the whole rocket).

There is little indication they're different.
There is this common concept that domestic versions are monkey versions multiplied by some modifier in key metrics.
While sometimes (for MCR-restricted articles) it's sorta true, for others it basically implies developing two separate products for one's own money just to worsen one's own commercial prospects. You can develop something else with this money in the first place.
No one does that - there are much more straightforward(and more effective) ways to protect domestic tech and ensure a competitive edge in case of conflict. And especially China doesn't - its way of protecting its tech is different.

Soviet Union is often mentioned as an example of special development monkey models - but SU typically messed up with electronics(used old/creatively simplified electronic blocks) and other older components(already developed!), not with developing different rocket motor and/or battery setups.

Modern Chinese weapons development is extremely competitive where multiple sub component vendors all compete for PLA orders.

The PLA chooses the vendors it wants to supply its forces, and those vendors are essentially barred from exporting its products without express permission for the PLA.

The runner up vendor often gets selected for the export market.

In this way, the PLA ensures opsec for its systems while also ensuring that there is a sufficiently broad array of vendors to ensure healthy competition to promote maximum innovation and lowest price.

There will be more R&D expenditure to an extent, but nowhere near the level we see with the likes of Apple and Samsung for example, who wastes a stupid amount of time and resources literally reinventing the wheel to avoid paying royalties to each other.

For Chinese defence industries, the reverse is true, where the government actively tech encourages and even mandates tech transfers between the big players to essentially reset the playing field after each round so past winners cannot simply rest on their laurels and need to constantly innovate and improve or else they will get overtaken.

This happened to SAC when they got complacent and lazy after getting the Flanker job and CAC dominated for the next two decades. But Beijing also reassigned some of CAC’a top talent to SAC, and they have been doing some solid work lately with the J16 and J31/35.

For the 052DE, it’s the same, they don’t need to specifically develop monkey model export subsystems, they can just use the best runner ups that lost out for the PLAN contracts.

The development costs are already spent, the export work will allow those companies to build up production capacity and experience so they offer much better competition to the winning companies in the next rounds of PLAN competitive tenders.
 

by78

General
The lead ship 172 appears to be undergoing overhaul/maintenance after eight years in service.

52714054812_4e2a5295e4_k.jpg
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
For the 052DE, it’s the same, they don’t need to specifically develop monkey model export subsystems, they can just use the best runner ups that lost out for the PLAN contracts.
Offtop:
I guess this new "E" trend in Chinese exports(à la Su/Rus) is also partially a result of a complaint by the actual contract winners that they'd like to compete for export orders, too.
 

kriss

Junior Member
Registered Member
Offtop:
I guess this new "E" trend in Chinese exports(à la Su/Rus) is also partially a result of a complaint by the actual contract winners that they'd like to compete for export orders, too.
More like they realized it sells better if customers think it's something PLA themselves uses. Like how they rename VT-4 and VT-5 into type 99E and type 15E in recent exhibit. This also begs a question on how long and how wide this new practice has been implemented? For all we know PL-15E and HHQ-9E might not be a export version but completely different platform developed to compete for the same role.
 
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