25w for a GaAs-FET amplifier isn't unreasonable, and for one to be used as an HPA (high powered amplifier), and can go up to 60kw. It depends how big the chip is, and the spaces within allowed by S-band radars should be able to accommodate larger die sizes.
052C/052D Class Destroyers
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
25w for a GaAs-FET amplifier isn't unreasonable, and for one to be used as an HPA (high powered amplifier), and can go up to 60kw. It depends how big the chip is, and the spaces within allowed by S-band radars should be able to accommodate larger die sizes.
Having GaN does not automatically mean the module is more powerful, it means it has the potential to be more powerful. You still have to pump more juice into it. The main feature if GaN is that it runs cooler, allowing for a lighter cooling equipment, to produce the same rf power as a GaAs part would. A GaN part would therefore be able to take much more power than a GaAs part before it burns out. It does not automatically confer more power. You can have a GaN radar that isn't so powerful but you can reduce the bulky cooling that goes with it and less power needed for the cooling system.
The 052D is still limited by the power infrastructure it inherited from the 052C unless it's generators have been upgraded. I would think the 052D's modules makes more power than the 052C's, being all liquid cooled instead of a hybrid air and liquid cooling (all air cooling limits the power on the Type 45's SAMPSON radar). I do not think the 052D's modules were GaN, at least not from the start anyway. If it were GaN it would begin where the 052D's second batch, where they dropped the calibration field booms off the radars, indicating that the modules have been redesigned so calibration support is now on the module itself, possibly by mutual coupling (extending the size of the wave until it interferes the next element, allowing the elements to read each other's output, and this interference is then measured if it's the correct level). If the modules have to be redesigned, it opens the opportunity that the modules might have other changes.
Hence if the first few 052D has the Type 346A (the first four ships in the 9th Destroyer Division, like 172 to 175), then at some point where the second batch begins (example would be 154 of the 6th Destroyer Division) you have the improved boom less 346A. These improved radars should be called 346A+. The extended 052D should come with this too.
Assuming 346A+ radar now uses GaN, the ship needs to pump more power to the radar to actually see a better performance benefit, and this requires an updated cooling and power infrastructure to the radars. I may think the power infrastructure between the 052C and 052D may have been improved but I'm not too sure between the first and second 052D batches although it's still entirely possible the power is pushed further. But it's nowhere like what you see on the 055 which is expressedly built for that purpose while the 052D hull is one that's already highly pushed to its limits already. The main benefit of using GaN then might be to improve the reliability of the radar modules by running cooler while the power increase might be minimal due to the limitations of the ship. I think the 055's radars are so powerful that it does not need the support of a VHF radar like the way the 052D still does.
I lean towards the belief that the Dual Sided AESA for the 054B, the smaller dual sided AESA seen on the 075, the AESA targeting emitters on the new 054A batch, are all GaN, to allow them to be light, slimmer and less bulked by cooling equipment. It's also possible that many if the PLAN's old style mechanical rotating radars may have been back end upgraded by replacing their cathode ray based TWT or klystron power amps, to one that is solid state using a large GaN power amplifiers, the whole purpose is to improve reliability.
Indeed, plausible. Although, increasing the onboard power would be challenging, certainly on the non-stretched variants. The extra 10% of displacement over the Type 052C possibly resulted in the 052Ds having a smaller range. Installing a more power hungry radar would make that still worse. I lean on the alternative that GaN was/will be introduced for power efficiency reasons. Even if the power consumption is kept the same, they could get 50%+ more RF output on account of efficiency improvements.
There is an unclassified document showing that the USN was developing 40/400W GaN amplifiers and 10 kW GaN amplifiers as replacements of legacy CFAs for a technological refresh of SPY-1 back in 2017, the former of which was planned to be completed in 2018. It’s a curious possibility that there might be an all solid state SPY-1 onboard one of those Technological Insertion Arleigh Burke ships.
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antiterror13
Brigadier
It is amazing to see that Chinese radar AESA technology is up there roughly on par with the USN which is the most advanced in the world
20 years ago, nobody would expect that, none!
Chinese was very backward at that time in term of radar technology
Current I could say that the US and China have the most advanced AESA radar technology, I think Chinese is already ahead in quite a big margin of the British, Japan, French and Russia
20 years ago, nobody would expect that, none!
Chinese was very backward at that time in term of radar technologyCurrent I could say that the US and China have the most advanced AESA radar technology, I think Chinese is already ahead in quite a big margin of the British, Japan, French and Russia
The article make an interesting assertion that the rectangular arrays in Type 346 had been moved into separate positions on top of the bridge in 052D.
If those arrays are indeed a C-band/datalink like we have suspected for Type 346, does that mean the rectangular arrays on top of 052D's bridge could be C-Band/datalink for HHQ-9 guidance and is a part of Type 346A system?
And maybe similar arrays on top of 055's bridge also have the same function?
I think the bars are for an IFF function. You have similar bars on 001, 002 and Type 075 too, none of them uses the HHQ-9. These bars might be AESAs on their own, and if they are, is meant to interrogate a large number of targets on all quadrants of the ship at the same time. The datalinks can simply be placed on the empty corners of the main array, assuming the main array has an octagonal shape, leaving the corners empty.
The 055 has eight arrays on top of the bridge, four large ones and four smaller ones. I am leaning that all of them are IFF, the large four are for the Type 346B, and the smaller set is for the X-band radar. This allows the ship to interrogate a huge number of targets, both closer and in far ranges. In addition there are four small panels on the bridge wings, two on each wing, that I suspect are the datalinks.
There are 400w and even 500w parts you can find commercially for use in commercial radars, such as ship navigation radars, airport surveillance radars and so on, that are CFA replacements. Heck there are companies exploring 400w GaN amplifiers for use in microwave ovens. You can go as far as 500w GaN amplifiers used in high end audio systems.
This one in China goes as far as 1200w.
You wonder who is using that.
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It is amazing to see that Chinese radar AESA technology is up there roughly on par with the USN which is the most advanced in the world
20 years ago, nobody would expect that, none!
Current I could say that the US and China have the most advanced AESA radar technology, I think Chinese is already ahead in quite a big margin of the British, Japan, French and Russia
Type 346 radar was developed during the 1990s where the program for a "Chinese Divine Shield/ 中华神盾" aka first the program of 海之星 was started in the late 1980s and then the Type 346 onboard Type 052C was completed put into service around the turn of the century - officially introduced in early 2000s but by then all the 346 programs were completed and well past trials.
The 346/ 中华神盾 has taken over a decade from conception to service. Lots of changes, programs, new technologies. It made use of AESA in fact it is the first major ship based search radar and fire control radar that used AESA. This series was also the first to make use of dual bands. Came out before the Sampson and well before the IAI's EL/M 2248 aka MF-Star.
Point is China was never that backward in radar technology. Certainly back in the 1980s was behind but not backwards. After all China developed all types of radars since the 1950s, even major phased arrays for early warning back in the 1950s.
It's just that in the 1980s and 1990s Type 346 would be behind SPY-1 but made use of AESA which is superior to SPY-1 in that department (a generalisation in the technology base). Each iteration and new radar after simply was developed and completed faster and made larger leaps of technology compared to American counterparts where they are still using SPY-1 with PESA technology (even SPY-1D and latest SPY-1 radars except for the SPY-1E) and GaA today. SPY-6 is still in development or trials and hopes to reach the general tech levels of Type 346B with AESA and GaN. I doubt China would be behind the US at all in any other subsystems radar related, certainly with far superior communications technologies which fall into CEC and IFF domains.
China was never that behind the US in radars. Since Type 346B (and many other land, space, sea based radars) China has actually shown far greater radar capabilities. US has not got any real specialised counter stealth radars (sure they never thought they'd need them back in the 1990s since these take a while to develop and improve over time), early warning, phased radars are peers and have been since the turn of the century. China was allegedly able to jam and spoof Taiwan's new American Pave Paws type radar as soon as it became operational with what was suspected by Janes to be a EW large phased array based in Fujian, directed in an electronic attack on the American tech early warning radar in Taiwan.
The US is yet to put into service something equivalent to Type 346A which was completed and on PLAN service by 2012. Nevermind the Type 346B onboard the 055 destroyer - a ship that puts out more than twice as much power as a Maya class and nearly twice as much available power as a Burke Flight II. All that going into electromagnetic weapons and sensors... those 346B radars are pretty much weapons at this point.
I do a theoretical exploration of what a 052C MLU refit would be. But first you lay down unavoidable premises and assumptions.
1. You likely cannot generate more electrical power off the ship than what you do now, so you focus on efficiency.
2. You want as much parts commonality as the future 052D. Face it, the old modules on the 052C are going to break down one by one over time and you will inevitably run out of spares. You want to build the new 052C MLU Type 346 radars off the 052D modules that is currently being mass produced, and using parts off the line greatly reduces your cost.
3. You replace the air blown cooling system on the 052C to a liquid cooled one.
4. The obvious VLS conversion to the U-VLS. I won't discuss this as being obvious.
5. The 052C array isn't as big as the 052D array, so using the same parts will not improve its performance over the latter. Even though its performance will still be below the latest 052D's, it will still be better than its original form.
6. Minor changes to the 052D standard: ESM mast, IFF bars and so on.
1. You likely cannot generate more electrical power off the ship than what you do now, so you focus on efficiency.
2. You want as much parts commonality as the future 052D. Face it, the old modules on the 052C are going to break down one by one over time and you will inevitably run out of spares. You want to build the new 052C MLU Type 346 radars off the 052D modules that is currently being mass produced, and using parts off the line greatly reduces your cost.
3. You replace the air blown cooling system on the 052C to a liquid cooled one.
4. The obvious VLS conversion to the U-VLS. I won't discuss this as being obvious.
5. The 052C array isn't as big as the 052D array, so using the same parts will not improve its performance over the latter. Even though its performance will still be below the latest 052D's, it will still be better than its original form.
6. Minor changes to the 052D standard: ESM mast, IFF bars and so on.
Since the power generation is a limit of 052C based hull - 052D and 052DL. The limits when put into context is still considerably superior to Kolkata class and peers of Mayas/Atagos, Horizons, Darings. Not far behind even Sejeongs and Burke Flight IIs. Type 055 having more than twice the power of Mayas, Darings, Horizons etc and far more than Burkes and Ticos, you have to wonder why the PLAN still commissions 052D/DL at about the same rate as 055s.
I understand this discussion has featured many times here but the conclusions reached surely are accurate. There just isn't that much need for 055 level of additional electromagnetic capability and available firepower. Kind of like a J-20 (055) paired with J-10C (052D). With how capable PLAN's CEC is (and has been for over a decade), I wonder if PLAN will introduce an arsenal ship just for missiles. No expensive and complex sensors, only networked and purposed for firing dozens of anti ship ballistic missiles and HGVs with maybe several dozen long and medium ranged air defence missiles and a few CIWS. Type 055s are surface fleet sensor nodes and master of all trades sort of ships but ultra complex, expensive, and resource demanding but you only need so many high tier sensor nodes on the surface. China uses space and HALE based dedicated sensor only platforms and if we consider ships like 052D and 055 as platforms which combine sensors and firepower against space, sea, subsurface, and land based targets, then the missing part of the puzzle would be firepower only platforms.
Arsenal ships as missile barges seem to be theoretically highly useful for PLAN given the current and anticipated military postures re US.
I understand this discussion has featured many times here but the conclusions reached surely are accurate. There just isn't that much need for 055 level of additional electromagnetic capability and available firepower. Kind of like a J-20 (055) paired with J-10C (052D). With how capable PLAN's CEC is (and has been for over a decade), I wonder if PLAN will introduce an arsenal ship just for missiles. No expensive and complex sensors, only networked and purposed for firing dozens of anti ship ballistic missiles and HGVs with maybe several dozen long and medium ranged air defence missiles and a few CIWS. Type 055s are surface fleet sensor nodes and master of all trades sort of ships but ultra complex, expensive, and resource demanding but you only need so many high tier sensor nodes on the surface. China uses space and HALE based dedicated sensor only platforms and if we consider ships like 052D and 055 as platforms which combine sensors and firepower against space, sea, subsurface, and land based targets, then the missing part of the puzzle would be firepower only platforms.
Arsenal ships as missile barges seem to be theoretically highly useful for PLAN given the current and anticipated military postures re US.
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