052C/052D Class Destroyers

snake65 said:

Admiral Kasatonov has already been launched some time ago and has started mooring trials. Two more are in the pipeline, one is expected to be launched next year and the hull of the fourth will be assembled by the end of 2017.

Three operational - Grigorovich, Essen and Makarov. Butakov has been launched, but is waiting for GTs, as well as Istomin and Kornilov still at Yantar shipyard.

Two types of missile corvettes are in construction - 21631 (12 launched and on order) and 22800 (18 launched/on order), both carrying 8 cell Kalibr VLS.

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That continues to make my point. The 2nd in class Gorshkov, a frigate, was luaj ched coming up on four years ago. Launched in 2015. It has nmot gone to see yet.

They hope to commission her in 2018, but that is nmot a sure deal.

Once a frigate sized vessel is launched, it should be commissioned within two years at the most.

but Russia is having problems building them...and then outfitting them and commissioning them once they are launched. The first in class was laid down in 2006 and finally commissioned in 2017. 11 years for a frgiate.

The second was laid down in 2009, launched in 2014, and may commission in 2018, but weill probably be 2019. Ten years for the second in class. This makes the point about the troubles Russia is having.

A 4,000 ton frigate should be built in a year and take one to two years to commission at the outside.

The US is bulding the 9,000 ton AEGIS DDGs in 16-18 month and them commissioning them in another 18 months. 36 months from lay down until commissioning...about three years. And those are large, very sophisticated ships.
Russia simply does not have the dollars or the infrastructure right now to keep up with either the US or china.

Perhaps their fortunes will change. We shall see.

But in the current situation, any talk about new large DDGs or Carries is just that...talk.

They were barely able to refit the old carrier into the Indian Vikramaditya and that vessels was already built. It still took them almost ten years.

As I say, their designs are good...but their capability to execute is seriously lacking right now.
They are building the Grigorovoch vessels faster, but they are not the same cutting edge design that the Gorshkovs represent.

They are alos building very decen corvettes...and that is allowing them some newer force capability.

Also, their new SSNs (Lassen) are top notch...but they have suffered the same fate there...taking a decade to get the first out, and al;most as long to get the second. In the same time period, the US hasd launched something like 15 new SSNs.

Lethe said:

The Mistral deal involved two ships delivered from France, and two ships built in Russia following modernisation of the shipyard supervised by DCNS. That is to say, the Mistral deal was not only a sign of Russia's decline in shipbuilding capacity, but also a plan to improve it.

Incidentally, I never did read anywhere about what happened to the shipyard side of the Mistral deal....

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Half of the two Mistrals were built in SPB and went by tug to St Nazaire so at least half a Mistral can be built in Russia.

Iron Man said:

There was a first time the Russians built the Slava class. There was a first time the Russians built the Kirov class. There was a first time the Russians built the Kuznetsov class. If they've been there before, they can get there again. And even more basically I would like to think that the people who envisioned ship classes like the Lider and Shtorm know more about Russian shipbuilding capability than you or I or random internet people on Key Forums.

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The shipbuilding capability that Russia had during the USSR days were of course impressive and quite capable, that isn't under dispute.

However I'm not sure what relationship you are trying to draw between USSR's shipbuilding capability and their achievements, to Russia's shipbuilding capability/industry today. My position is that Russia's shipbuilding capability was not maintained/insufficient orders since the end of the Cold War due to poor funding, and that has led to deterioration of their industry.


And yes, designs like Lider and Shtorm have been shown, proposed and considered and may even be built eventually. But I'm sure you appreciate between building and fitting out and commissioning a ship on a competent schedule, versus going through that whole process with abnormally long delays or continually pushed back deadlines.

Now, I'm not saying that Lider and Shtorm will face those sorts of delays whenever they are built/if they get built -- after all the Russian Navy might one day choose to order them once their shipbuilding industry reaches a state of capability that they are comfortable with in managing projects of that complexity -- however I am saying that simply because the Russian shipbuilding industry has shown those designs, does not mean they will be able to build them on a competent or satisfactory schedule.

The Gorshkov class FFG is unfortunately a very good example of a ship class which has faced delays (laid down in 2006, launched in 2010, and yet to be commissioned), and continuous pushbacks of its commissioning date (planned for 2015 a few years back, and pushed back with a current date set for 2017 year end)... and it is the sort of less than competent schedule that I was talking about. Clearly the Russian Navy and shipbuilding industry thought they were up to the task of building the ship on a competent schedule when they first designed the ship and when it was first ordered, but events obviously did not pan out that way. (This is a rather good article on the Gorshkov class FFG as well, from CSIS. It's not perfect but it talks a bit about the ship class's history and the overall state of the Russian Navy and shipbuilding industry with a respectable degree of depth, I think )

Given the trajectory that Gorshkov class and other recent big ticket Russian Naval ship classes have taken, I'm not sure if the Russian shipbuilding industry should deserve our confidence that they will be able to competently execute any potential orders for Lider and Shtorm, if an order was made now or in the foreseeable future. So that takes us back to the state of the Russian shipbuilding industry today...

Iron Man said:

There was a first time the Russians built the Slava class. There was a first time the Russians built the Kirov class. There was a first time the Russians built the Kuznetsov class. If they've been there before, they can get there again. And even more basically I would like to think that the people who envisioned ship classes like the Lider and Shtorm know more about Russian shipbuilding capability than you or I or random internet people on Key Forums.

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Just because you have money or had the done it before, does not mean you can easily repeat your past.

Take Saturn V for example, that rocket with 100 ton+ to LEO ability was by far, the most impressive human engineering project ever in the history of human race, now US wants to go to moon or Mars again, so why not just rebuild it? Its not that simple, US had to spend the same amount of money and resources to do R&D on their SLS rocket as China is doing on their similar size Long March 9 because all the expertise, experience, engineers who worked on Saturn V are no longer there, and you be surprised how useless blueprints are, they are of reference than instructions.

Same thing goes for Russia, they were lucky that Indians were constantly buying their planes and ships during the past 2 decades, otherwise their military industrial complex would be even worse than now.

I have no doubt that with enough money and investment Russia can build it up again, but its not going to be anytime soon, and it might not be worth it for them. Russia is a land empire with vast resources, Navy has always been secondary to them and they don't have any good ports. Any bigger ships are more of luxury than necessitates for them. This is not so for China, China needs a navy to protect their vast overseas investment as well as energy imports. Russia have no investment overseas and they produce more energy then they consumes. Their primary concern for the next 20-50 years or so is going to be their European sector.

So that means if Russia is smart they might never need to build up infrastructure for building big ships, because those a lot of money to invest, and once they build it up, then what? They can't mass produce destroyer and cruiser and aircraft carrier like China, so they spend all the expensive fix cost to produce a few ships? That's like F-22 with billions of dollars of R&D and only produce 250 copies.

It would be far more cost effective for them to buy big ships from China with custom design, then have the ability to just maintain them cheaply.

Or the last possible reason is that Russia wants to build up its ships construction ability again primarily for the reason to produce ships for export, if that is the goal, they will lose to China in both price and quality.

sanblvd said:

Just because you have money or had the done it before, does not mean you can easily repeat your past.

Take Saturn V for example, that rocket with 100 ton+ to LEO ability was by far, the most impressive human engineering project ever in the history of human race, now US wants to go to moon or Mars again, so why not just rebuild it? Its not that simple, US had to spend the same amount of money and resources to do R&D on their SLS rocket as China is doing on their similar size Long March 9 because all the expertise, experience, engineers who worked on Saturn V are no longer there, and you be surprised how useless blueprints are, they are of reference than instructions.

Same thing goes for Russia, they were lucky that Indians were constantly buying their planes and ships during the past 2 decades, otherwise their military industrial complex would be even worse than now.

I have no doubt that with enough money and investment Russia can build it up again, but its not going to be anytime soon, and it might not be worth it for them. Russia is a land empire with vast resources, Navy has always been secondary to them and they don't have any good ports. Any bigger ships are more of luxury than necessitates for them. This is not so for China, China needs a navy to protect their vast overseas investment as well as energy imports. Russia have no investment overseas and they produce more energy then they consumes. Their primary concern for the next 20-50 years or so is going to be their European sector.

So that means if Russia is smart they might never need to build up infrastructure for building big ships, because those a lot of money to invest, and once they build it up, then what? They can't mass produce destroyer and cruiser and aircraft carrier like China, so they spend all the expensive fix cost to produce a few ships? That's like F-22 with billions of dollars of R&D and only produce 250 copies.

It would be far more cost effective for them to buy big ships from China with custom design, then have the ability to just maintain them cheaply.

Or the last possible reason is that Russia wants to build up its ships construction ability again primarily for the reason to produce ships for export, if that is the goal, they will lose to China in both price and quality.

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I don't expect Russia to buy naval ships from China. I do think Russia's shipbuilding industry has stagnated, but that doesn't mean they will want to buy large ships from China if they are able to plough that money to invest in their own industry instead, which needs it.

Russia may or may not be more interested in its ground forces than its navy in the foreseeable future, however I think everyone can agree that the current state of its Navy and the trajectory and rate of commissioning new ship types isn't conducive to maintaining its present strength for very long unless things pick up. That is to say, I think Russia definitely has a requirement for some large naval ships and combatants, even if it is also increasing its orientation back to the army given its present geopolitical interests.

Bltizo said:

I don't expect Russia to buy naval ships from China. I do think Russia's shipbuilding industry has stagnated, but that doesn't mean they will want to buy large ships from China if they are able to plough that money to invest in their own industry instead, which needs it.

Russia may or may not be more interested in its ground forces than its navy in the foreseeable future, however I think everyone can agree that the current state of its Navy and the trajectory and rate of commissioning new ship types isn't conducive to maintaining its present strength for very long unless things pick up. That is to say, I think Russia definitely has a requirement for some large naval ships and combatants, even if it is also increasing its orientation back to the army given its present geopolitical interests.

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In the end, whatever Russia builds, that really depends on oil price though, but given the choose, I think it be wiser for Russia to invest in its submarine force more. A nation with an average surface is good as no fleet in time of war, but an above fleet of submarines can do a lot of damage.

not sure why you guys are talking Russian Navy here, but since you do LOL I offer,

#1 the current numbers Yesterday at 8:27 PM

Jura said:

as of April 28 of this year, the link

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(it's not official, but reasonable)
claims 72 submarines and 210 surface combatants (OK including minesweepers, landing vessels) to be in service with the Russian Navy; it also gives the breakdown into (just saying for those who don't read Cyrillic)
the Baltic Fleet, under Балтийский флот
the Black Sea Fleet, under Черноморский флот
the Northern Fleet, under Северный флот
the Pacific Fleet, under Тихоокеанский флот
the Caspian Flotilla, under Каспийская флотилия

the oldest vessel I noticed (the last column shows the commissioning year) is as old as me LOL

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and,
#2 the 28 Russian Billionaires on the Bloomberg list
got richer by almost 10b last year: it's making News Of The Hour right now
perhaps the point is Russia is not all that poor; the ambitions have been there for centuries, as in the hilarious 2030 naval outline Jul 21, 2017

Jura said:

...

they say they want to be second just to the USN!

the document can be downloaded in PDF:

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point #41
"Россия не допустит существенного превосходства военно-морских сил других государств над Военно-Морским Флотом и будет стремиться к его закреплению на втором месте в мире по боевым возможностям."

I'm curious what the official translation would be, my off-handed is:

"Russia won't allow its Navy to be significantly surpassed by naval forces of other countries, and will aim at securing the second biggest [naval] combat capabilities [in the world]."

just LOL after I've been following for the last three+ years the Chinese naval buildup

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Go down the list, notice how many ships are with commission with 19xx instead of 20xx, that means in the near future, most of them need to be decommissions or Russia can still keep them in service with unimaginable maintenance cost. There is no way Russia will replace them with 1 to 1 ratio, or worse, tonnage to tonnage ratio.

Number of billionaires Russia have don't matter, most of Russian's billionaire are oligarch that took advantage of USSR collapse, they brought Soviet asset penny on the dollar, very few of them got rich from their own hard work or innovation.

Russia's economy is same size as South Korea and California, the fact that they are able to have all of those hardware is a small miracle by itself, Russia is punching way above its weight in the world, but don't expect this to continue. I have not even mention their demographic situation.

And yes I agree we need to stop talking about Russia Navy on 052C 052D discussion, I will not reply any further.

sanblvd said:

..., I will not reply any further.

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but if you want, you may enlighten me:
what did you mean by

sanblvd said:

... A nation with an average surface is good as no fleet in time of war, but an above fleet of submarines can do a lot of damage.

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sentence?

LOL I noticed while checking my post which is right below, I mean you stretched my reading comprehension skills, but I'm interested in naval issues

When you think there is big news on 052c or 052d cause of reply increase.
But its a discussion about Russia