052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kwaigonegin said:

I get what you say and do agree in terms of 'sowing misinformation' however that wasn't what I was trying to get at. I wasn't implying they should overstate or even understate a certain equipment's capability.. I was thinking more along the lines of just being proud of your achievement.

I realized there is certainly a time and place to subterfuge intelligence gathering and discount one's military capabilities but when a ship/plane/tank etc is launch and you're making a public statement there is really no need.

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I think part of it is cultural. Another part is disinformation and the hope that they will be underestimated.

Whatever they say, these are very formidable vessels, and any other naval force is going to take them very seriously.

They are simply eons above what the Chinese were producing just a little over 10 years ago. Amazing progress.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kwaigonegin said:

I get what you say and do agree in terms of 'sowing misinformation' however that wasn't what I was trying to get at. I wasn't implying they should overstate or even understate a certain equipment's capability.. I was thinking more along the lines of just being proud of your achievement.

I realized there is certainly a time and place to subterfuge intelligence gathering and discount one's military capabilities but when a ship/plane/tank etc is launch and you're making a public statement there is really no need.

Other nations don't really do that. When someone launches a ship and and breaks the wine bottle over it's hull or if they just had a maiden flight of their fighter etc they say good things.

You don't ever hear them say, "WOW...this is a great day, we worked so hard together and our efforts have paid off in this wonderful creation of ours, I'm so proud of everyone involved blah blah blah... HOWEVER Billy Bob from across the street's boat is still much prettier and much better than ours!"

Anyway I'm getting way OT so I'll just stop right there..

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I think my reply does also answer this portion of your question (which I think is a legitimate one), in the sense that China is now very aware that an excessive trumpeting of its military can lead its neighbours to react with unease.

That said, I expect that in the commissioning of these vessels, shipbuilding industry representatives, military personnel, political personas, etc will make statements regarding the ship's prowess and technological capability. But it probably won't be broadcast over any avenues like people's daily where they might be interpreted as inflammatory.

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Jeff Head said:

I think part of it is cultural. Another part is disinformation and the hope that they will be underestimated.

Whatever they say, these are very formidable vessels, and any other naval force is going to take them very seriously.

They are simply eons above what the Chinese were producing just a little over 10 years ago. Amazing progress.

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I think so too. I hope in coming years, we will see documentaries on CCTV regarding how the chinese military industrial complex managed to develop these kind of products when only slightly over ten years ago, J-7s and jiangweis were still in production. It would definitely be an interesting story.
I wonder what the coming ten years will bring.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I think the Chinese government and military are betraying a very high standard of canniness and discipline in controlling the message they are sending out through all channels, official and unofficial, regarding their naval build up. Given their message discipline shown here, one has to wonder how many of the all allegedly inadvertent release of information on various weapon projects we've seen could really be unintentional.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

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Regarding T/R modules, just for comparison, type 45's very capable SAMPSON radar has two rotating arrays, each array face with 2600 elements.
Considering 346A is such a massive radar comparatively (I think it's the largest fixed APAR installation of its kind currently aboard any surface combatant in the world -- I'd like to know how capable zumwalt's SPY-3 is), the 4045 element count is completely reasonable -- and depending on power output and backend processing, it could conceivably one of the most capable naval borne PARs in the world, once mature.

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What the advantages of SAMPSON radar (two rotating arrays) ? cheaper, because you only need 2 instead of 4 ? or something else more fundamental ?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

antiterror13 said:

What the advantages of SAMPSON radar (two rotating arrays) ? cheaper, because you only need 2 instead of 4 ? or something else more fundamental ?

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Well SAMPSON's final configuration is probably driven by cost, and it is inevitably a compromise of sorts.

However having a rotating 2 sided array presents a few benefits, including lower cost due to less production of expensive TR modules that a fixed 4 side array requires, as well as an ability to mount the actual radar on a higher mast due to lightness -- an advantage as it grants greater radar horizon, conferring potentially earlier detection for sea skimming targets.

there are a few disadvantages however, namely the rotating array itself adds weight and requires additional structural modifications. Also, each single array may be less powerful due to its smaller size (there is a practical limitation as to how large an array you can fixate on a rotating platform).

Those are what I can list off the top of my head.

Personally I think SAMPSON's configuration is definitely a great lower cost route, and its greater height is a definite advantage. However its limited by array size, and in that regard I think USN and PLAN pursuits of larger, lower mounted PARs is justified. Although I'd like to see a bazan/hobart/gorshkov style arrangement on a future PLAN combatant, preferably 055.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I always wonder why no one has tried a fixed three array triangular configuration similar to that used on the KJ2000 AWACS. You could build the arranges length wise into a main sensor mast to achieve large array size while spreading the weight along the mast rather than have it all at the top.

Theoretically, this will give you the best of both worlds.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

He's made a few other claims as well, some regarding 055, and some regarding 052D that turned out to be somewhat accurate, if memory serves.

And most "insiders" often would have connections with the relevant industries or institutes rather than the leadership of an entire military service.

Anyway, those claims aren't too outlandish. We know YJ-18 exists, even if we don't know what kind of missile it is, and we know 346A is a large AESA so each panel should have a correspondingly generous T/R module count

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Regarding 'Henri K'................i know he posts a lot at the Pakistan Defence forum, where he loads a lot of Chinese military videos.
I dont know how he gets his info............but he did say once on a post that he lived in China for a while and could speak the language, so i presume that at the very least the info he posts, is from what he can understand first hand from Chinese news sources.

Anyway............his info has proved to be very upto date and accurate.......and he's still sure the 055 is in the pipeline!

Regarding the Chinese somewhat underplaying the capabilities of there military............well not all the time. A recent article on 81 military site claimed the West didnt know the secret of its 052D Destroyer.
The article went into some depth, stating that its active radar had many advantages over the passive radar as fitted to the US AB's, and also mentioned some capability advantages over the Sampson radar on a RN Type 45.
Though they did claim that the height of the mounting of the Sampson radar, did give that an advantage in dealing with some aspect of missile engagement (cant remember what that was though), over there 052D.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

I think my reply does also answer this portion of your question (which I think is a legitimate one), in the sense that China is now very aware that an excessive trumpeting of its military can lead its neighbours to react with unease.

That said, I expect that in the commissioning of these vessels, shipbuilding industry representatives, military personnel, political personas, etc will make statements regarding the ship's prowess and technological capability. But it probably won't be broadcast over any avenues like people's daily where they might be interpreted as inflammatory.

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I think so too. I hope in coming years, we will see documentaries on CCTV regarding how the chinese military industrial complex managed to develop these kind of products when only slightly over ten years ago, J-7s and jiangweis were still in production. It would definitely be an interesting story.
I wonder what the coming ten years will bring.

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I think the next 10 years will be EVEN more interesting than the previous ten. We're talking a big likelihood of the first Chinese CV, the 055s, a new class of LHA/LHD and almost certainly the design/development phase of a new indigenous stealth aircraft or maybe a J20B with significant improvement like J10A/B but this time with the powerplant to match. The only thing uncertain is in the ground forces but I think a new model of MBT is probably due as well. The Type 90/99 will be dated even with improvements over the years and we're not even talking weaponry and sensors etc. A new class of SSN will probably be launch as well.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

kwaigonegin said:

I think the next 10 years will be EVEN more interesting than the previous ten. We're talking a big likelihood of the first Chinese CV, the 055s, a new class of LHA/LHD and almost certainly the design/development phase of a new indigenous stealth aircraft or maybe a J20B with significant improvement like J10A/B but this time with the powerplant to match. The only thing uncertain is in the ground forces but I think a new model of MBT is probably due as well. The Type 90/99 will be dated even with improvements over the years and we're not even talking weaponry and sensors etc. A new class of SSN will probably be launch as well.

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I see PLAN deploying more ship-based UAVs of various size, range, stealth, and capabilities, including submarine-based unmanned underwater crafts.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:

I always wonder why no one has tried a fixed three array triangular configuration similar to that used on the KJ2000 AWACS. You could build the arranges length wise into a main sensor mast to achieve large array size while spreading the weight along the mast rather than have it all at the top.

Theoretically, this will give you the best of both worlds.

Click to expand...

The Ford has (or will be?) but it is on the bridge superstructure