052/052B Class Destroyers
- Thread starter tphuang
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Mysterre
Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
I don't know where you're getting this idea from. A DDG like 052C/D should have no problems "charging" high sea states at 30+ knots. To be perfectly honest a massively top-heavy cruiser like the Ticonderoga should be less seaworthy than a 052C/D at high sea states.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
where did I mention Ticonderoga? or did you just jump to a conclusion without reading the post
I mentioned specifically the Arleigh Burke, and regardless of what you may personally think it is probably the most well balanced DDG in the world right now, its design is maybe older than Type 052C/D but its proved to be one which is very successful in keeping up with a Nimitz Class carrier at full pace regardless of the sea states
that is why USN has built so many of this varient, any captain of a Arleigh Burke will tell you its a DDG which is true all weather destroyer which can go extremely fast in very rough seas, even a Type 45 DDG would have trouble where the Arleigh Burke would sail through, it’s a design based on decades of actual experience by USN and many hard lessons learnt, there is no short cut to experience no matter how far you leap frog in technology
where did I mention Ticonderoga? or did you just jump to a conclusion without reading the post
I mentioned specifically the Arleigh Burke, and regardless of what you may personally think it is probably the most well balanced DDG in the world right now, its design is maybe older than Type 052C/D but its proved to be one which is very successful in keeping up with a Nimitz Class carrier at full pace regardless of the sea states
that is why USN has built so many of this varient, any captain of a Arleigh Burke will tell you its a DDG which is true all weather destroyer which can go extremely fast in very rough seas, even a Type 45 DDG would have trouble where the Arleigh Burke would sail through, it’s a design based on decades of actual experience by USN and many hard lessons learnt, there is no short cut to experience no matter how far you leap frog in technology
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
To be fair, you did mention "cruiser" for the PLAN, so associating that with the only class of cruiser in the world today wouldn't be illogical. Although obviously any PLAN cruiser would have a far greater beam than the Ticos/Spruance. Even DDGs like burke and Daring have greater beams.
I'd like to ask since when did we assume that the only destroyer class in the world that can keep up 30 knots is the burke? (as implied in post 2586?) Isn't it normal for all medium to heavy surface combatants to be able to make 30 knots these days? In fact, if a destroyer or frigate can't make 30 knots it is considered inadequate.
I'd like to point out this statement in particular as being (imho) misleading:
"But a DDG can not charge high sea states at 30+knots like a cruiser can so I think a larger cruiser style warship will appear in PLAN pretty soon "
I've never heard of DDGs unable to keep up 30+ knots in high sea states, and certainly nothing about any stability or speed advantages any cruisers in service today (i.e.: ticonderoga class) have over the many DDG classes in the world. Besides, the differences between "cruisers" and "destroyers" is noted in regards to armament, sensor suites, additional command and other C4I capability, rather than speed or stability.
I agree the PLAN should soon start work on a 10k+ ton cruiser class, but it's not because existing 052Cs and 052Ds can't make 30 knots and keep up with CVBGs, but rather because of the advantages cruisers have over destroyers I listed above.
There are many reasons why burke has had such a long production run, and I'm sure its good handling is one of them... But I've never heard anything about burkes being noticeably better in speed and stability compared to any other class of modern destroyer.
I'm not sure what information this statement is based on.
Here I'm even more confused. I think you've argued yourself into a corner here. First of all, there's been no great accepted fact that burkes are supposedly able to keep up 30 knots in high sea states while all other destroyers and surface combatants can not. Second, even if that was the case, seakeeping principles are fairly well known all around the world now, and you don't really need "decades of actual experience" to design a well balanced hull capable of making the speed you want, when you have so much open source history not to mention supercomputers and scaled simulators in possession. And third -- again, what made you believe burkes supposedly have such superior seakeeping qualities compared with all other surface combatants?? I'm actually a little dumbfounded by this reasoning, I've never quite seen a claim like it.
To be fair, you did mention "cruiser" for the PLAN, so associating that with the only class of cruiser in the world today wouldn't be illogical. Although obviously any PLAN cruiser would have a far greater beam than the Ticos/Spruance. Even DDGs like burke and Daring have greater beams.
I'd like to ask since when did we assume that the only destroyer class in the world that can keep up 30 knots is the burke? (as implied in post 2586?) Isn't it normal for all medium to heavy surface combatants to be able to make 30 knots these days? In fact, if a destroyer or frigate can't make 30 knots it is considered inadequate.
I'd like to point out this statement in particular as being (imho) misleading:
"But a DDG can not charge high sea states at 30+knots like a cruiser can so I think a larger cruiser style warship will appear in PLAN pretty soon "
I've never heard of DDGs unable to keep up 30+ knots in high sea states, and certainly nothing about any stability or speed advantages any cruisers in service today (i.e.: ticonderoga class) have over the many DDG classes in the world. Besides, the differences between "cruisers" and "destroyers" is noted in regards to armament, sensor suites, additional command and other C4I capability, rather than speed or stability.
I agree the PLAN should soon start work on a 10k+ ton cruiser class, but it's not because existing 052Cs and 052Ds can't make 30 knots and keep up with CVBGs, but rather because of the advantages cruisers have over destroyers I listed above.
There are many reasons why burke has had such a long production run, and I'm sure its good handling is one of them... But I've never heard anything about burkes being noticeably better in speed and stability compared to any other class of modern destroyer.
I'm not sure what information this statement is based on.
Here I'm even more confused. I think you've argued yourself into a corner here. First of all, there's been no great accepted fact that burkes are supposedly able to keep up 30 knots in high sea states while all other destroyers and surface combatants can not. Second, even if that was the case, seakeeping principles are fairly well known all around the world now, and you don't really need "decades of actual experience" to design a well balanced hull capable of making the speed you want, when you have so much open source history not to mention supercomputers and scaled simulators in possession. And third -- again, what made you believe burkes supposedly have such superior seakeeping qualities compared with all other surface combatants?? I'm actually a little dumbfounded by this reasoning, I've never quite seen a claim like it.
Mysterre
Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
YOU were the one who mentioned "cruiser", and I gave Ticonderoga as an example of a cruiser that happens to be top-heavy and IMO would be less seaworthy in high sea states than a 052C/D.
Regardless, in your response you still have failed to provide evidence or reasoning why destroyers could not go 30+ knots in high sea states, which as far as I know any random modern destroyer with the properly powered engines can do.
Perhaps you should be rereading your own posts before jumping into a reply that only serves to make you look even more unreasonable.
YOU were the one who mentioned "cruiser", and I gave Ticonderoga as an example of a cruiser that happens to be top-heavy and IMO would be less seaworthy in high sea states than a 052C/D.
Regardless, in your response you still have failed to provide evidence or reasoning why destroyers could not go 30+ knots in high sea states, which as far as I know any random modern destroyer with the properly powered engines can do.
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
This same statement is also made by
In addition, in 1994 the US Naval Institute had an when there were only four of the vessels commissioned at the time:
Since that time, particularly in the Flight IIA vessels, even more sea keeping capabilities were designed into the hull and the Flight IIA represent larger numbers than the Flight I and Flight II groups combined and are still gowing.
Finally, in 2011, in regarding proposed Hydrodynamic Energy Savings on the Burke class, this statement is made about the Arleigh Burke in general:
There are many more such articles and statements about the Burke class sea keeping states and abilities. All in all, there is significant information out there indicating in fact that the ABs are among the best in the world when it comes to high speed and high sea keeping states. In fact, after much study and (as you indicate) computerized analysis and modeling, their hulls were designed specifically with this purpose (among others) in mind.
I think Asif's claim was more about the ability for the DDG 51 class to maintain high sea states at that speed as opposed to it being the only one to be able to go that fast.
Actually, regarding its sea keeping states, the
US Navy said:
This same statement is also made by
In addition, in 1994 the US Naval Institute had an when there were only four of the vessels commissioned at the time:
US Naval Institute said:
Since that time, particularly in the Flight IIA vessels, even more sea keeping capabilities were designed into the hull and the Flight IIA represent larger numbers than the Flight I and Flight II groups combined and are still gowing.
Finally, in 2011, in regarding proposed Hydrodynamic Energy Savings on the Burke class, this statement is made about the Arleigh Burke in general:
US Naval Surface Warfare Center said:
There are many more such articles and statements about the Burke class sea keeping states and abilities. All in all, there is significant information out there indicating in fact that the ABs are among the best in the world when it comes to high speed and high sea keeping states. In fact, after much study and (as you indicate) computerized analysis and modeling, their hulls were designed specifically with this purpose (among others) in mind.
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
Cool, but this is something everyone knows. What we're confused about here is Asif's perculiar emphasis on JUST the Arleigh Burkes regarding seaworthiness and speed.
As you stated in your post, the ABs are "among" the best in the world. Asif's post to us is implying that the ABs "are" the best, which although might not have been his intention, but still dawns upon us as a controversial implication.
Cool, but this is something everyone knows. What we're confused about here is Asif's perculiar emphasis on JUST the Arleigh Burkes regarding seaworthiness and speed.
As you stated in your post, the ABs are "among" the best in the world. Asif's post to us is implying that the ABs "are" the best, which although might not have been his intention, but still dawns upon us as a controversial implication.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
Well I think Jeff has got the right end of the stick here, what I was trying to say (might not have come across correctly) is that a larger vessel in the size of a cruiser would be more beneficial in high sea states than the current DDG in PLAN inventory, namely Type 052C/D
The mention on the Arleigh Burke is because quite simply no other DDG could take a high sea state at 30+ knots like the Arleigh Burke does, the pith and the roll stability that is provided on this vessel is extra-ordinary to say the least, anyone who has sailed this ship will tell you
And for the reason I mentioned it, because at the back of my head I was recalling an article published in Warship magazine in the summer (2012) regarding DDG-51 which sailed at high speed through a high category storm in the North Atlantic at speeds in excess of 30 knots, it included a captains perspective and during the interview he stated that Arleigh Burke DDG is probably the world’s best and well balanced DDG, in terms of its survivability, durability and ability’s to hit high waves and just slice through them , I know who I would believe
Minimizing tilting, the role, the pitch Arleigh Burke provides is not something that is matched by many DDG, for this reason I said and still say barring Arleigh Burke everyone else would need a cruiser that includes China, as this DDG was designed with decades of actual experience by USN and hard lessons they learnt, you may be able to leap frog technology but for experience there is no short cut
Well I think Jeff has got the right end of the stick here, what I was trying to say (might not have come across correctly) is that a larger vessel in the size of a cruiser would be more beneficial in high sea states than the current DDG in PLAN inventory, namely Type 052C/D
The mention on the Arleigh Burke is because quite simply no other DDG could take a high sea state at 30+ knots like the Arleigh Burke does, the pith and the roll stability that is provided on this vessel is extra-ordinary to say the least, anyone who has sailed this ship will tell you
And for the reason I mentioned it, because at the back of my head I was recalling an article published in Warship magazine in the summer (2012) regarding DDG-51 which sailed at high speed through a high category storm in the North Atlantic at speeds in excess of 30 knots, it included a captains perspective and during the interview he stated that Arleigh Burke DDG is probably the world’s best and well balanced DDG, in terms of its survivability, durability and ability’s to hit high waves and just slice through them , I know who I would believe
Minimizing tilting, the role, the pitch Arleigh Burke provides is not something that is matched by many DDG, for this reason I said and still say barring Arleigh Burke everyone else would need a cruiser that includes China, as this DDG was designed with decades of actual experience by USN and hard lessons they learnt, you may be able to leap frog technology but for experience there is no short cut
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
Prove it.
A sea captain's opinion is of no relevance, he hasn't been on each and every country's DDGs and can't judge each and every one of them based on experience. I want solid statistics from sea trials/tests but I know I won't get any because some countries are secretive with such data. Hence, no one cant be sure just how high the ABs rank in terms of seaworthiness without the data on other vessels. In short, how do you know other DDGs can not "take a high sea state at 30+ knots" ?
Prove it.
A sea captain's opinion is of no relevance, he hasn't been on each and every country's DDGs and can't judge each and every one of them based on experience. I want solid statistics from sea trials/tests but I know I won't get any because some countries are secretive with such data. Hence, no one cant be sure just how high the ABs rank in terms of seaworthiness without the data on other vessels. In short, how do you know other DDGs can not "take a high sea state at 30+ knots" ?
re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer
I would go so far as to say that I believe they are probably the best destroyers in the world at sea worthiness and handling in high sea states.
That does not mean at all that other DDGs "can't" handle high sea states...we know that they regularly do.
But given the US Navy's experience (which exceeds all other navies by orders of magnitude simply because of the tempo of operations and numbers of vessels), and given the US technological, metallurgy and shipbuilding expertise...which are also clearly among the best in the world...it is not too far a stretch, particularly with the Burke Class and the wealth of information that is available on them, to give it a high degree of probablility.
But that is just my opinion, and just like an anus, or rectum sphinkster if you prefer...everybody has one. LOL!
Well, as you state, we cannot absoutely, 100% proof positive know for sure that they are "the" best. It is very difficult to make that absolute assertion about almost anything.
I would go so far as to say that I believe they are probably the best destroyers in the world at sea worthiness and handling in high sea states.
That does not mean at all that other DDGs "can't" handle high sea states...we know that they regularly do.
But given the US Navy's experience (which exceeds all other navies by orders of magnitude simply because of the tempo of operations and numbers of vessels), and given the US technological, metallurgy and shipbuilding expertise...which are also clearly among the best in the world...it is not too far a stretch, particularly with the Burke Class and the wealth of information that is available on them, to give it a high degree of probablility.
But that is just my opinion, and just like an anus, or rectum sphinkster if you prefer...everybody has one. LOL!