052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

052D 2 was launched a week or so ago, here she is:

052D 1 with 052C 6 being fitted out:

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Outstabnding! Thanks a lot Bltizo! Nice to see it there outfitting. (Is that the new one there? It looks like it is next to an outfitting Type 052C).

Is number three in the hall then?

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

Outstabnding! Thanks a lot Bltizo! Nice to see it there outfitting. (Is that the new one there? It looks like it is next to an outfitting Type 052C).

Is number three in the hall then?

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Yes to both.

I presume 052D 3 should be in the hall where 052D 1 was built...

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

Containing a 64 cell VLS is also very encouraging and it will be nice to see wether to not the quad pack missile launchers are installed if not then it means the VLS can launch anti-ship, land attack and surface to air missiles

It would also be interesting to know how many land attack cruise missiles a Type 052D will be able to carry

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48 LR air defense missiles is a virtual certainty IMO. That leaves 16 cells for a mixture of LACM, antiship, VL antisub, and quad-packed MR air defense missiles.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Armed with YJ-12 anti-ship missile maybe ?

For the new HQQ-9B i read : range max 200 km, ceiling 30 km precedent HQQ-9 : 125/27.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

Yes, the 052D looks to be a very capable enhancement over the Lanzhou class, which I guess will end up being six vessels. They are very good vessels as well. Would be onteresting one day to know the full extent of their battle management capabilities. Thier link capabilities, their cooperative engagement capabilities, the treu psecs on theis PARS and missiles, etc. Same for the newer 052Ds and see what improvements in all of those areas (and more) were made.

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Well this is really what it's all about, we all know the outside but real question is what it's like on the inside

I can't remember the full numbers of the top of my head but the radars and sensors on the Type 45 produce terabytes of data, it has thousands of miles of cable which transfers this information from where it is analysed and processed before a decision is made, and if I remember correctly it takes the Type 45 DDG just 7 seconds to detect a incoming threat processing that information and launching its own missile to intercept, the reaction time for the Type 45 is the worlds best its equipment and men who operate them also the best together they give DDG a formidable capability

As far as I know 2 x Type 052D are launched and 2 are under construction and for fun here's the pics of the 4th and 5th Type 052C which look not far away from completing

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

Well this is really what it's all about, we all know the outside but real question is what it's like on the inside

I can't remember the full numbers of the top of my head but the radars and sensors on the Type 45 produce terabytes of data, it has thousands of miles of cable which transfers this information from where it is analysed and processed before a decision is made, and if I remember correctly it takes the Type 45 DDG just 7 seconds to detect a incoming threat processing that information and launching its own missile to intercept, the reaction time for the Type 45 is the worlds best its equipment and men who operate them also the best together they give DDG a formidable capability

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Not meaning to dispute Type 45's capability, but we don't know how significant those numbers are in relation to every other modern AAW, PARS equipped DDG from burke to nansen to 052C (for instance, I would be surprised if other ships did not also have thousands of miles of cables, or that their combined sensors didn't also produce terabytes of data).


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In any case, I am seriously starting to wonder how long it will take these 4 new 052Cs to enter service. 052C 150 still isn't in service...

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FORBIN said:

Armed with YJ-12 anti-ship missile maybe ?

For the new HQQ-9B i read : range max 200 km, ceiling 30 km precedent HQQ-9 : 125/27.

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No idea about "HQ-9B" but sounds like there may be some movement regarding YJ-12 and its potential arming on 052D... wait and see.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

... here's the pics of the 4th and 5th Type 052C which look not far away from completing

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Well, I am sure the US Navy Burke and Tico AEGIS fire control personel would argue the "best in world," designation with all comers regarding their response times, and most importantly their kill ratios.

However, each has to simply be good enough to defend the vessels in their groups and themselves...if they are fast enough to do that, then they are good enough.

As I see these vessels, I realize that we are spoiled now with the PLAN shipbuilding capability. I remember when those first two Type 052Cs were built side by side how so many marveled...now it is common place for the PLAN. Whether its FFGs, DDGs, OPVs, etc.

Anyhow, as I said, a force of six Type 052C Lanzhow class DDGs followed by 8-12 Type 052D DDGs will place the PLAN in a very powerful position regarding very capable multi-function DDGs within the world's Navies. Not to mention the 16 Type 054A FFGs and who knows how many (30+) Type 056 OPVs. The PLAN surface combvatants are very well rounded IMHO, and very capable on the world's scene.

However, the PLAN really needs to get to a point, to be completely well rounded and capable, where they are producing yery capable world class SSNs in simliar fashion. In the US Navy submarine service they have a saying. There are attack submarines...and then their are targets. An overwhelming SSN capability on anyo0nes part is going to be a very difficult threat to voercome and place any adversary at a very distinct disadvantage.

But, thosee DDGs and FFGs are certainly very squared away and very powerful vessels. It takes them all to be effective in the blue water when it comes to sea lane control and area denial.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Well 7 seconds is the time quoted for Type 45, and the head of BAE has stated that in terms of air defence no DDG meets the requirements better than the Type 45 for the Royal Navy not even Arleigh Burke simply because this DDG is designed as a solo point defence for a particular mission, Tico and Arleigh Burke are multi mission DDG designed to be used as multi role whereas Type 45 principle is air defence

In a intensive simulated attack a Eurofighter Typhoon carried out a attack profile on Type 45 which was from a very high angle and fast, the Type 45 not only detected the missile launch but also sucesfully engage the missile, during this time the DDG was tracking the aircraft the whole time and also downed the aircraft too, that's what you call a true air defence destroyer second to none, the capabilitys of the this DDG has been widely advertised

It is said Type 45 carries "only" 48 air defence missiles, answer is simple, because that is all it will ever need

Back to Type 052D, ESF must be really happy to get all four Type 052C, and SSF will get two of the Type 052D which we seen launched (D1 and D2) then the D3 and D4 will go to NSF and if the production continued then D5 and D6 will finish off the DDG floitlla at NSF

I mean already we have confirmed 10 DDG of this class (6 x C and 4 x D) not bad progress

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

FORBIN said:

Armed with YJ-12 anti-ship missile maybe ?

For the new HQQ-9B i read : range max 200 km, ceiling 30 km precedent HQQ-9 : 125/27.

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What I'm more interested in is the minimum altitude of the HQ-9B. The current HQ-9 supposedly has a minimum altitude of 20m or something like that, which makes it incapable of engaging pretty much any modern sea-skimmer in the terminal stage, a problem it shares with the S-300F on the 051C's. I don't know if this is a missile or radar or software problem (or combination), but the HQ-9B needs a 5m or even 3m minimum altitude if it wants to be able to engage all threats.

asif iqbal said:

Well 7 seconds is the time quoted for Type 45, and the head of BAE has stated that in terms of air defence no DDG meets the requirements better than the Type 45 for the Royal Navy not even Arleigh Burke simply because this DDG is designed as a solo point defence for a particular mission, Tico and Arleigh Burke are multi mission DDG designed to be used as multi role whereas Type 45 principle is air defence

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"Meeting requirements" doesn't mean much unless you know what those requirements are. For example, cost caps, local manufacturing requirements, systems integration, etc. can all have nothing to do with actual capability but yet make the type 45 meet "requirements" better than an AB. Besides, being multirole doesn't automatically make the AB somehow less capable in AAW than a single role type 45. Sampson is unproven while Aegis/SPY-1 has gone through a dozen iterations and software/hardware upgrades, along with probably twice as many missiles with more versatility (e.g. anti-surface) and greater range. It is also a rotating dual panel AESA which introduces the possibility of a single-point failure as well as non-continuous target updates. The Type 052C/D also avoids both of these problems.

asif iqbal said:

In a intensive simulated attack a Eurofighter Typhoon carried out a attack profile on Type 45 which was from a very high angle and fast, the Type 45 not only detected the missile launch but also sucesfully engage the missile, during this time the DDG was tracking the aircraft the whole time and also downed the aircraft too, that's what you call a true air defence destroyer second to none, the capabilitys of the this DDG has been widely advertised

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This doesn't mean anything. It certainly doesn't prove that the type 45 is second to none, unless you can prove to me that Aegis cannot do the same, or that the 052C/D cannot do the same, or that any other modern air defense ship cannot do the same.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

Well 7 seconds is the time quoted for Type 45, and the head of BAE has stated that in terms of air defence no DDG meets the requirements better than the Type 45 for the Royal Navy not even Arleigh Burke simply because this DDG is designed as a solo point defence for a particular mission, Tico and Arleigh Burke are multi mission DDG designed to be used as multi role whereas Type 45 principle is air defence

In a intensive simulated attack a Eurofighter Typhoon carried out a attack profile on Type 45 which was from a very high angle and fast, the Type 45 not only detected the missile launch but also sucesfully engage the missile, during this time the DDG was tracking the aircraft the whole time and also downed the aircraft too, that's what you call a true air defence destroyer second to none, the capabilitys of the this DDG has been widely advertised

It is said Type 45 carries "only" 48 air defence missiles, answer is simple, because that is all it will ever need

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With all due respect, but being able to successfully engage a single attacking aircraft and missiles it launched is hardly an impressive achievement. I would consider it a bare minimum for any air defense warship in this day and age, or even from a couple of decades ago.

The Type 45 only having 48 SAMs is not a critically problem by itself, but if you pair that modest missile load per ship with the whittled down total produced numbers of Type 45s the RN will ultimately field, you start to run into problems.

If a Type 45 can defeat the combined saturation attack from 48 attacking aircraft each launching 2-4 missiles, then colour me impressed. Otherwise, the Type 45s have a major issue defending against the kinds of saturation attacks top tier adversaries could routinely launch with little difficulty with a fraction of their air, surface or sub forces even if the entire RN Type 45 fleet were all deployed at once.

The Type 45 is without doubt a top tier modern AAW DDG, but it is not perfection incarnate and it does have flaws and limitations. Trying to gloss over them will only make it more dangerous if these ships are ever needed for a real war against an opponent who can strike back.

If I was in charge of the RN, I would commission a few arsenal ships as a matter of priority. These do not need to be fancy, just a basic hull fast enough to keep up with the Type 45s, and just stuff it full of VLS cells. Slap a couple of goalkeepers on it, keep the crew down to the minimum and costs low and all the RN's problems are solved at a fraction of the cost of buying enough Type 45s to successfully defend against a saturation attack.