052/052B Class Destroyers

i.e. · Sep 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Geographer said:
J-XX is absolutely right that population is the key to power. Eventually all developed nations will achieve relatively equal per capita productivity, making the number of people key to total economic and military power. However, China is shooting itself in the head because of the One Child Policy. China's population will peak around 2030 then decline, and as it declines it will rapidly age, just like Japan. China's only hope is to reverse the One Child Policy and encourage large families, or welcome a wave of immigrants (not just guest workers, but immigrants who settle and become Chinese citizens).

By contrast, America's population is steadily increasing, and probably always will because it has a higher fertility rate than most developed nations and has a pro-immigrant culture. India will surpass China in population around 2030, and keep on going for a long time because they do not have leaders so cruel or short-sighted as to impose a One Child Policy on Indian families.

China's demographic structure will look like Japan's in a few decades. China's leaders and CCP members need to think long and hard about how to avoid Japan's (and Italy's, Spain's, Greece's, and Portugal's) demographic decline. A nation should strive to be forever young, to always have a population bulge in the 15-30 range, because this is when an economy and society is more dynamic, more innovative, more risk-taking, and more forward-thinking. Societies of elderly (65+) like we see in Japan and Southern Europe is less innovative, less dynamic, and more risk-averse. Young people require fewer social services than the elderly so the government budget can be spent on infrastructure and power projection rather than old-age welfare systems.

I believe China's future citizens will look back at the One Child Policy as one of the great mistakes of the CCP, and possibly one of the worst social policies of all time. They will be begging Chinese parents to have more children, offering large financial incentives for babies, just like Singapore, Hong Kong, France, Sweden, and many other developed nations are.

OBVIOUSLY you haven't jammed yourself in the subways of shanghai during rush hour.

or haven't heard that farmers in northern china is drilliing down to 300 meters to pump water to farm grain.

China can half its population and dramatically decrease the environmental pressures, and still achieve first world productivity... IF china does not implode because of population pressure on enviornment.!

jackliu · Sep 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Population is only one of the factor, it is by far not the only "key"

A large population that is uneducated and poor have absolutely no positive effect for the nation, in fact it is more of a burden than anything else.

Only when you have a population that is combined with many other factor means adding strength to the nation. China's one child policy when first put into effect was a very wise one, they effectively halt population growth while increasing the GDP, that means more money for less people and everyone's standing of living goes up. This also means only one child per family means that child will receive the best resource possible, such as education, nourishment etc...which will play a big role in developing the nation.

An college grad is more useful than 6 children who never finish primary school, and getting drafted by their parents to work as free child labor.

And yes, right now it is a good time for China to stop the one child policy because the single child themselves have grow up and having children, most of them have reached middle class which means when they bring up their own children, they will know how to raise them to be effective part of society. And we already seeing the one child rule is relaxing already. For example, if you are a single child, you can now have 2 children, but they must be 5 years apart. Correct me if I am wrong.

So in the end what I am trying to say is, population growth for the sake of growth only leads to disaster, in fact there are more than a few country on earth that is showing the effect from this, I am not going to name names, but it does not take a genius to figure it out.

dingyibvs · Sep 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

You guys are not looking at all factors. Look at all the developed large-population countries, what's a big demographic crisis they're facing? The poor is having many, many more kids than the rich! This tends to keep the poor people poor, and imposes a great economic burden on the more productive citizens. China will eventually have to have better social safety nets, but that can easily lead to the creation of a dependent class that grows much faster than the independent class by churning out babies by the bushels. Putting a rather stringent cap on population prevents this from happening. I agree that the 1-child policy is a bit too harsh for the current climate, but there definitely should be a limit, maybe relaxing it to 2 in the future and no more than 3 in the foreseeable future.

And yes, environmental concerns due to a huge population is also a major, major long term consequence that needs to be taken into consideration.

Now, back to the 052. I saw in the "predictions chart" on the Speculations thread that a further upgrade to the 052D, the 052E is possibly in the pipeline. I know it's just speculation by a rather respected member on the Chinese boards, but what are your opinions on this? I tend to think that the 052D has gone just about as far as the 052 design can evolve, that it really doesn't have enough potential left in it to have another major upgrade.

Blitzo · Sep 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

dingyibvs said:
Now, back to the 052. I saw in the "predictions chart" on the Speculations thread that a further upgrade to the 052D, the 052E is possibly in the pipeline. I know it's just speculation by a rather respected member on the Chinese boards, but what are your opinions on this? I tend to think that the 052D has gone just about as far as the 052 design can evolve, that it really doesn't have enough potential left in it to have another major upgrade.

I feel like if PLAN wants a three tier blue water surface combatant fleet, they will continue producing a ship of 052D's size. Of course these tiers will be the 4k-5k ton 054A/B (GCS, la fayette, OHP) sized frigate, the 7k-8k ton DDGs of 052C/D (type 45, Hobart class) and the eventual 10k ton 055 cruiser sized ship (Ticonderoga, flight 3 Burke, sejong).

Any 052E could use the same or modified (I.e. more stealthy) hull with rearranged guts, with changes mainly towards the sensor suite and electronics (new radars, composite masts, etc) and possibly propulsion/power instead of significant changes or increases in size or weapons suite (the new universal CCL VLS looks set to stay for quite a few years, and save the advent of rail guns or DEW I do not see them deviating from the 130mm gun and HQ-10, type 730 ciws).

This is all speculation of course, and that chart could've been written by any no name, but if the PLAN commits to a three tier surface combatant fleet (I personally think it makes sense; they do not need the USNs massive number of burkes and ticos which are very similarly capable), they will still have ageing DDGs to be retired by the end of this decade and a further development of 052D can make sense in context of a new frigate and cruiser design.

Mysterre · Sep 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:
I feel like if PLAN wants a three tier blue water surface combatant fleet, they will continue producing a ship of 052D's size. Of course these tiers will be the 4k-5k ton 054A/B (GCS, la fayette, OHP) sized frigate, the 7k-8k ton DDGs of 052C/D (type 45, Hobart class) and the eventual 10k ton 055 cruiser sized ship (Ticonderoga, flight 3 Burke, sejong).

Any 052E could use the same or modified (I.e. more stealthy) hull with rearranged guts, with changes mainly towards the sensor suite and electronics (new radars, composite masts, etc) and possibly propulsion/power instead of significant changes or increases in size or weapons suite (the new universal CCL VLS looks set to stay for quite a few years, and save the advent of rail guns or DEW I do not see them deviating from the 130mm gun and HQ-10, type 730 ciws).

This is all speculation of course, and that chart could've been written by any no name, but if the PLAN commits to a three tier surface combatant fleet (I personally think it makes sense; they do not need the USNs massive number of burkes and ticos which are very similarly capable), they will still have ageing DDGs to be retired by the end of this decade and a further development of 052D can make sense in context of a new frigate and cruiser design.

I think that with the advent of the 052D the 052 series has reached the limit of its usefulness and upgradeability; it's time for a larger vessel in the 8-9K displacement range with 80-96 CCL cells.

Blitzo · Sep 30, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:
I think that with the advent of the 052D the 052 series has reached the limit of its usefulness and upgradeability; it's time for a larger vessel in the 8-9K displacement range with 80-96 CCL cells.

Such a vessel would start to infringe on the size, capability (and likely, cost) of a 10k ton cruiser with 128 VLS cells. So I see any potential existence of 052E will depend on whatever 055 ends up being, and whether 055 is meant to supplement the DDG force as a CG or replace it as the next new DDG (so a ship, 8-9k tons with 80-96 VLS to be produced in greater numbers than a CG would).

If the latter, then I see no sense in a continued development off the 052 hull. If the former, then I think retaining the same weapons load of 052D but substantially improving sensors and electronics, and possibly propulsion, would be feasible as the PLAN would have a cruiser sized ship to carry the burden of 100+ VLS and expanded C&C facilities.

Of course there is the possibility of both a 8-9k ton DDG and 10k ton CG serving together in the PLANs orbat, but I do not think they are as indulgent as the USN in that regard.

Mysterre · Oct 1, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:
Such a vessel would start to infringe on the size, capability (and likely, cost) of a 10k ton cruiser with 128 VLS cells. So I see any potential existence of 052E will depend on whatever 055 ends up being, and whether 055 is meant to supplement the DDG force as a CG or replace it as the next new DDG (so a ship, 8-9k tons with 80-96 VLS to be produced in greater numbers than a CG would).

I would like to see a new destroyer design as I think the current 052D is probably not too different technology-wise from the 052C, though I obviously have no way to prove this. A clean-slate design built from the ground up to accommodate the larger CCL cells as well as incorporate advancements in ship design, crew comfort/ergonomics, and electronics, such as CIC's with many large overhead displays and multifunctional stations like what you see in the latest European designs, X/S-band radar combo, enclosed main mast, UAV/UUV hangars, etc. The 052 series is incapable of accommodating many or possibly all of these changes.

Bltizo said:
Of course there is the possibility of both a 8-9k ton DDG and 10k ton CG serving together in the PLANs orbat, but I do not think they are as indulgent as the USN in that regard.

A 8,000t destroyer with 80 cells and an 11,000t cruiser with 128 cells would be sufficiently different to warrant two separate classes.

Blitzo · Oct 1, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:
I would like to see a new destroyer design as I think the current 052D is probably not too different technology-wise from the 052C, though I obviously have no way to prove this. A clean-slate design built from the ground up to accommodate the larger CCL cells as well as incorporate advancements in ship design, crew comfort/ergonomics, and electronics, such as CIC's with many large overhead displays and multifunctional stations like what you see in the latest European designs, X/S-band radar combo, enclosed main mast, UAV/UUV hangars, etc. The 052 series is incapable of accommodating many or possibly all of these changes.

Hmm I'm starting to agree with you, especially if a clean slate design is developed to allow for a more spacious, sensor and electronics heavy ship while retaining an identical or modestly larger weapons load. Of course, having room for future growth is also vital, and 052D may have stretched the limits of the current 052B derived hull. We don't need an 052E to have the issues facing flight iii burkes.

I wonder if semantics will dictate that any "052E" has to be a derivative off 052D's hull considering the significant differences between 052 and 052B.

A 8,000t destroyer with 80 cells and an 11,000t cruiser with 128 cells would be sufficiently different to warrant two separate classes.

Actually you make a compelling case which I agree with. If most of the weight of a prospective "052E" is put into a new generation a new generation of sensors, mast, battle management, and UAV/UUV stations, that would complement a cruiser of that weight class quite well.

I wonder which PLAN surface combatant class will be the first to feature many of the "next generation" innovations, that we're seeing aboard zumwalt, GCS, etc. Namely X/S band radars, enclosed mast, UAV/UUVs and a much more stealthy hull (all of which you mentioned). It would be great if 055 turned out to be the ship, considering it's likely going to be the PLAN's first clean sheet major surface combatant design for about a decade. Not to mention the only other ship larger than 055 with such innovations will likely be zumwalt (until flight iii burke, but that program is in so much limbo who knows what it'll end up looking like).

Oh well, I can dream. But eventually the chinese shipbuilding industry is going to be pioneering the latest technologies aboard their naval ships, and I feel with 052D's appearance that it may be soon.

tphuang · Oct 2, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Mysterre said:
I would like to see a new destroyer design as I think the current 052D is probably not too different technology-wise from the 052C, though I obviously have no way to prove this. A clean-slate design built from the ground up to accommodate the larger CCL cells as well as incorporate advancements in ship design, crew comfort/ergonomics, and electronics, such as CIC's with many large overhead displays and multifunctional stations like what you see in the latest European designs, X/S-band radar combo, enclosed main mast, UAV/UUV hangars, etc. The 052 series is incapable of accommodating many or possibly all of these changes.

A 8,000t destroyer with 80 cells and an 11,000t cruiser with 128 cells would be sufficiently different to warrant two separate classes.

if you read my blog, it's something that's been planned for a while now. I'm not sure they will go with 2 separate classes, but they are definitely going to have a new class of ship designed with the new VLS in mind along with other advancements you mentioned.

Jeff Head · Oct 2, 2012

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:
Of course, having room for future growth is also vital, and 052D may have stretched the limits of the current 052B derived hull. We don't need an 052E to have the issues facing flight iii burkes.

If most of the weight of a prospective "052E" is put into a new generation a new generation of sensors, mast, battle management, and UAV/UUV stations, that would complement a cruiser of that weight class quite well.

I wonder which PLAN surface combatant class will be the first to feature many of the "next generation" innovations, that we're seeing aboard zumwalt, GCS, etc. Namely X/S band radars, enclosed mast, UAV/UUVs and a much more stealthy hull (all of which you mentioned). It would be great if 055 turned out to be the ship.

Flight III Burke is likely to be something along the lines of the Se Jong class, though there is a significant discussion going on rregarding it.

I would vote for them incoporating one AGS into it, having 128 cells, 2 RAMS and the helo facilities...along with upgrades to the newer dual band radars if they can fit it. But uit is really a stop gap and probably no more than 12 will be built, if that many.

I believe the Type 052D is a signifivant improvement for the PLAN. I believe they will build eight of them and they will make a huge improvement for the PLAN.

As to the next generation and what innovations it will bring forward, we will simply have to wait and see. We know they are more than capable of building a larger design and fitting it out with whatever new innovations they develop. Thye are proving this with every new ship class they build from the 056, to the o54As, o52Ds to the Liaon Ning.

052/052B Class Destroyers

i.e.

Senior Member

jackliu

Banned Idiot

dingyibvs

Senior Member

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Mysterre

Banned Idiot

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Mysterre

Banned Idiot

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

tphuang

Lieutenant General

Jeff Head

General