052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:

Many more changes and they would loose the benefit of having a mature and well established hull design, and they might as well have started with a clean slate altogether.

What would be interesting (and telling) is whether the PLAN orders any more 052Ds after these two. Will they go back to the two ship experimental class route to mature systems as we had seen with the 054, 052B and 051C designs, and wait a few years before getting any more DDGs while the 052Ds get put through their paces, or are they confident enough with their design and systems that they will build more 052Ds as the first pair are conducting trials?

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We've seen modules for ninth hull (what many believe can only be the 3rd 052D) at JNCX while hulls 7 and 8 (052D 1 and 2) are in the building halls. So PLAN have definitely ordered more than the first pair. The two most common predictions for 052D production is either 4 hulls or 12.

What's more interesting is that there is literally no delay between the production of 052C+s and 052Ds, which can say things about how prepared the shipyard is, how finalized (or delayed) the design might be, the maturity of various subsystems etc.
And the fact that it looks like PLAN are not doing their standard "first two of class" thing, it might reflect on how they have finally settled on a design they feel they can mass produce first time around. Or maybe they just really need a lot of destroyers to replace ludas, of which there are still something like 11 left.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I think the rapid transition from 052C+ to 052D production is a benefit of using the baseline 052 hull instead of starting from scratch.

The shipyard and workers would be largely familiar with the 052 design, and the changes between the 052C+ and 052D would largely just be down to them putting in different stuff into the same spaces.

If the new sections do prove to be for the 3rd 052D, then I think it would be time for us to ditch the old 'two ship test class' concept altogether as it has been long enough since the PLAN did anything of the sort.

I believe the rapid mass production we are seeing with the likes of the 056 and possible 052D (maybe going as far back as the 054A) might be the first signs of a watershed moment in Chinese warship construction, whereby Chinese ship designers have proven that they have come of age and have fully mastered modern warship design principles as well as digitalized design and construction methods, whereby new ships are designed completely on computers, which produce fully accurate computer models of the ships that can then by tested with great confidence and reliability by computer modeling down to the smallest details.

They may have developed and adapted these design and production techniques some time ago as part of their civilian shipbuilding business, and may be had to prove the effectiveness of the method to the PLAN with some test ships, but the PLAN seems to be satisfied enough with the results that they have decided that they do not need to wait to see how the 056 and 052D designs pan out before committing to a large production run.

A secondary factor that might explain the large PLAN orders could be that the Chinese government is using naval contracts as a form/part of it's stimulus package to try and cushion the shipyards from the fall in civilian orders as a result of the global economic downturn. Which is a kind of win-win for everybody as the navy gets shinny new ships while the shipyards can keep skilled workers and already-paid-for capital equipment fully employed through the lean times so that they are ready and able to taken on new civilian orders as soon as the global economy starts to recover in earnest.

If this is the case, the PLAN high command might just be one of the few groups on people on the planet who doesn't want the global economy to perk up anytime soon.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

tphuang said:

I think the latest picture shows that 4, 5 and 6 are all still at the shipyard. 4 is next to 6. 5 and 6's superstructure are not painted yet. Even the 3rd one is coming back to JN after its final?? sea trials.

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i.e. said:

#5 and #6 are right next to #7 and #8 fitting out. in the same picture.

by end of this year PLAN will have 6 052C and may be 2 Ds in the water fitting out.

Bath Iron Works pops out may be 2 AB a year. Jiangnan changxing has enough capacity to do may be 4-6 destroyers a year, plus Subs, plus Auxillaries.

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This is why I stated that there must have been only two ships left at JN now. We know 151 already has its pennant number painted and delivered to ESF, and 150 was spotted without number at Dinghai on the 18th, which means there is almost no chance for those two ships to be at JN when HSH took the D pictures a few days ago. Then we can compare with the older aerial photos, which showed three ships, one berthed next to the launch dock, two berthed to the right. The latest pictures showing two are now berth next to each other to the left. Obviously this is based on the assumption that the 151 picture is genuine, if not then that could be just 150 driving around and we still have three ships at JN.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

So does anyone think this is a 052D? A lot of stuff on Chinese sites about the 052D about to appear. This does seem to have a different number of windows from what we've seen on a 052C.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

AssassinsMace said:

So does anyone think this is a 052D? A lot of stuff on Chinese sites about the 052D about to appear. This does seem to have a different number of windows from what we've seen on a 052C.

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Yes, it is. Just a gun alone tells you this is something new.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

And the windows

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

This is what, they think, the 052D will look like!

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

That's certainly one of the closer drawings, but there are still a few bits wrong, such as the VLS being way too big. Totoro did a nice summary over on CDF saying how you could fit 8x8 mk 41 VLS cells in 052Cs current bow VLS space with a meter each way to spare.

And I think we all expect a somewhat modified ciws configuration. Then there's the possibility of a new radar to replace the yagi antennae, and this CGI lacks the AShMs (words of its presence or lack of aboard 052D is notably quiet), and the placement of the RHIB/life boat is likely incorrect as well, because pictures of hull 9's aft/helipad module shows enclosed RHIB rooms around a centrally aligned helicopter hangar ala 054A.

But still a nice CGI.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

plawolf said:

Many more changes and they would loose the benefit of having a mature and well established hull design, and they might as well have started with a clean slate altogether.

What would be interesting (and telling) is whether the PLAN orders any more 052Ds after these two. Will they go back to the two ship experimental class route to mature systems as we had seen with the 054, 052B and 051C designs, and wait a few years before getting any more DDGs while the 052Ds get put through their paces, or are they confident enough with their design and systems that they will build more 052Ds as the first pair are conducting trials?

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I wonder if this latest version has the hull stretched wider as people on Chinese forums claimed, or it is just based on the 052C's hull. If they really wanted to work with a well established hull design, they should be going with the latter.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Bltizo said:

That's certainly one of the closer drawings, but there are still a few bits wrong, such as the VLS being way too big.

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This. If the VLS is as big as the artist has shown, it would never have fitted.