052/052B Class Destroyers

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Good looking ships, will be good for duty off somalia with the two helicopter hangars.

I wish they didn't take out the VDS though, that for me was one of the pros of the otherwise obsolete 112,113 ships. But there's thought the VDS was replaced by the same TAS as 054/A, 052C etc, so if that's the case it's no loss.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

asif iqbal said:

one thing i dont get with the Zumwalt is the naval gun? when they have cruise missles what is the need for naval gunfire? plus to use naval gunfire u need to first control the sea to get close to the shore, which means the enemy probably isnt that dangerous anyway, defeating the purpose for naval gunfire?

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The AGS is a 155 mm gun with a range of in excess of 100 nautical miles. They can stand 30-40 miles off shore and still do fire support for Marines 60-70 miles inland at GPS accuracy for sustained fire rates not possible for cruise missiles.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:

The AGS is a 155 mm gun with a range of in excess of 100 nautical miles. They can stand 30-40 miles off shore and still do fire support for Marines 60-70 miles inland at GPS accuracy for sustained fire rates not possible for cruise missiles.

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but what's the size of the final warhead?

It's achieving that "100 nm" range it does all kinds of tricks like basebleed and rocket assist.

actually from look of things the LRLAP (the version of warhead that will achieve the longest range, advertised 83 nm) will have most of the projectile volumne filled with a rocket motor.

the actual explosive is the size of a spitwade.

and I thought one the the original criticism of the AGS thing is that the calibre is just too low. instead of a 6.1 in, someone commented that it ought have gone to a 8 inch. solution.

I prefer the Rocket Artillery approach. mount a BM-30 Smerch system on to a naval ship. much cheaper and about as effective as the multibillion dollar AGS program.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

i.e. said:

but what's the size of the final warhead?

It's achieving that "100 nm" range it does all kinds of tricks like basebleed and rocket assist.

actually from look of things the LRLAP (the version of warhead that will achieve the longest range, advertised 83 nm) will have most of the projectile volumne filled with a rocket motor.

the actual explosive is the size of a spitwade.

and I thought one the the original criticism of the AGS thing is that the calibre is just too low. instead of a 6.1 in, someone commented that it ought have gone to a 8 inch. solution.

I prefer the Rocket Artillery approach. mount a BM-30 Smerch system on to a naval ship. much cheaper and about as effective as the multibillion dollar AGS program.

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Nope. The problem with the Smerch is of course that it'll take you about 20 minutes to reload. So fire off 12 rather massive warheads (at a range of only 70 km, by the way) in the span of some odd seconds, then spend the next 20 minutes reloading the rockets.

Whilst with the AGS, you fire, fire, fire, fire, until you run out of ammo. In regards to the ammunition, it has 11 kg HE charge, more than enough to seriously incapacitate say, insurgents who happened to be fighting in an urban neighborhood, with superior accuracy to the rockets fired by the Smerch.

By the way, if you really want Rockets instead of a gun, mount the M270 instead of the Smerch. Faster reloading of it's munitions and a higher degree of both accuracy and modularity with negligible trade offs in regards to it's payload weight and it's range. Either way, even the M270 is inferior to a fully matured AGS.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

IronsightSniper said:

Nope. The problem with the Smerch is of course that it'll take you about 20 minutes to reload. So fire off 12 rather massive warheads (at a range of only 70 km, by the way) in the span of some odd seconds, then spend the next 20 minutes reloading the rockets.

Whilst with the AGS, you fire, fire, fire, fire, until you run out of ammo. In regards to the ammunition, it has 11 kg HE charge, more than enough to seriously incapacitate say, insurgents who happened to be fighting in an urban neighborhood, with superior accuracy to the rockets fired by the Smerch.

By the way, if you really want Rockets instead of a gun, mount the M270 instead of the Smerch. Faster reloading of it's munitions and a higher degree of both accuracy and modularity with negligible trade offs in regards to it's payload weight and it's range. Either way, even the M270 is inferior to a fully matured AGS.

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Nope.

1. Reload for a navalized system with mechanical auto reloaders, I do not think is 20 minutes.

2. range for the original baseline is 70 km. for the chinese copy (PHL-03) it is cited around 150 km.
I suspect with same type of tricks LRLAP is playing, i.e. rocket assist for the warhead it could be much higher.

3. If AGS is designed soley to fight puny insurgents with its 11 kg warhead then fine. In front of some more serious resistence I would wonder how much good that 11 kg spitwad will do.

4. and who says SMERCH type of rocket artillery couldn't use GPS/inertial/terminally IR-radar guided munition to achieve the same type acuracy? actually wouldn't it be easier because , wait, most rocket artillery in service already has all the pletory of guided munitions.
and the hw design requirements for these sensored warheads are less strigent because rocket artillery don't have to deal with the m-teenth Gs of accelleration when coming out of a overloadedsuperbigcaliber gun tube.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

i.e. said:

Nope.

1. Reload for a navalized system with mechanical auto reloaders, I do not think is 20 minutes.

2. range for the original baseline is 70 km. for the chinese copy (PHL-03) it is cited around 150 km.

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I suspect with same type of tricks LRLAP is playing, i.e. rocket assist for the warhead it could be much higher.

3. If AGS is designed soley to fight puny insurgents with its 11 kg warhead then fine. In front of some more serious resistence I would wonder how much good that 11 kg spitwad will do.

4. and who says SMERCH type of rocket artillery couldn't use GPS/inertial/terminally IR-radar guided munition to achieve the same type acuracy? actually wouldn't it be easier because , wait, most rocket artillery in service already has all the pletory of guided munitions.
and the hw design requirements for these sensored warheads are less strigent because rocket artillery don't have to deal with the m-teenth Gs of accelleration when coming out of a overloadedsuperbigcaliber gun tube.

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But what is the weight and size of a SMERCH munitions compared to the AGS? Let's not forget balancing the logistical need to store a reasonable amount of these munitions on board.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

joshuatree said:

But what is the weight and size of a SMERCH munitions compared to the AGS? Let's not forget balancing the logistical need to store a reasonable amount of these munitions on board.

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true
sustained ammunition would be a problem, much less than a 155mm artillery.

but a 65 caliber 155mm artillery mount isn't volumn and weight light either.

so a SMERCH might be able to fit to a smaller ship but with less sustainable firepower.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I can tell you now that PLAN is far more interested in having something like AGS on its future destroyer than having multiple rocket launcher system like A-100 or AR-2.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Each AGS is the equivalent of a full battery of six 155 mm howitzers in the field, with a much longer reach, and much more precise targeting.

The munitions available will be effective for anything from infantry to armor to surface vessels. They will go from HE to Armor piercing, to anti-armor-smart bomblets, to various types of AP munitions dependant on the fire mission.

re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I think ie was saying some dimensions of the AGS could be done more cheaply, and in some cases better (i.e. range, payload) by putting existing MRLS onto smaller ships. Obviously putting an MRLS onto a destroyer is stupid, you could use that space for a much greater number of VLS tubes.

I imagine the new 130mm gun should have some extended range/precision strike munitions being developed for it, hardly a difficult task for the industry's experience with similar artillery munitions. The ERGM meant for the US navy's mark 45 127mm guns was cancelled but was meant to have a range of some 110km compared with AGS's LRLAP's 190km.