00X/004 future nuclear CATOBAR carrier thread

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Mobilizing against enemy capable of destroying CVN? Nuclear contamination would be a small concern. Chances are WWIII already happened.
You can take out a CVN with a well placed torpedo. Or it can just catch fire, look at the military ships getting busted in peace time at home port in the past few years.

Something like a Mark 60 CAPTOR/hammerhead torpedo mine could even do the trick for an ambush. Getting in range when war is declared is difficult and getting out alive is even more difficult.

IF WWIII already happened and ICBM got launched, having a CVN or not don't change a thing.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is a misconception. Compared to a conventional design a nuclear-powered supercarrier is not significantly more expensive to build or to maintain and refuel over the entire lifecycle of the ship (which in USN is 50 years) but is significantly cheaper in operation
CVNs are far slower to build than CVs.

See below:


NameLaidLaunchedCommissionedDuration (Laid-Commission)
Forrestal14 July 195211 December 19541 October 19553 years, 2 months
Saratoga16 December 19528 October 195514 April 19563 years, 3 months
Ranger2 August 195429 September 195610 August 19573 years
Independence1 July 19556 June 195810 January 19593 years, 5 months
Kitty Hawk27 December 195621 May 196029 April 19614 years, 4 months
Constellation14 September 19578 October 196027 October 19614 years, 1 month
America9 January 19611 February 196423 January 19654 years
JFK22 October 196427 May 19677 September 19683 years, 11 months

Going down the line: (D = Laid down, L = Launched, C = Commissioned, T = Total, Y = Years, M = Month)
1. Nimitz-subclass

CVN-69 - D: Aug 1970, L: Oct 1975, C: Oct 1977 (T: ~7Y+3M)
CVN-70 - D: Oct 1975, L: Mar 1980, C: Mar 1982 (T: ~6Y+5M)
2. Theodore Roosevelt-subclass
CVN-71 - D: Oct 1981, L: Oct 1984, C: Oct 1986 (T: ~5Y+1M)
CVN-72 - D: Nov 1984, L: Feb 1988, C: Nov 1989 (T: ~5Y+1M)
CVN-73 - D: Aug 1986, L: Jul 1990, C: Jul 1992 (T: ~5Y+11M)
CVN-74 - D: Mar 1991, L: Nov 1993, C: Dec 1995 (T: ~4Y+9M)
CVN-75 - D: Nov 1993, L: Sep 1996, C: Jul 1998 (T: ~4Y+8M)
3. Ronald Reagan-subclass
CVN-76 - D: Feb 1998, L: Mar 2001, C: Jul 2003 (T: ~5Y+5M)
CVN-77 - D: Sep 2003, L: Oct 2006, C: Jan 2009 (T: ~5Y+4M)

Average laydown to commission time for CV is 43.75 months, average laydown to commission time for CVN is 66.56 months.

Russia doesn't have a "doctrine for carriers" (or even a carrier) and Soviet doctrine is public knowledge. Soviet aircraft carriers were helicopter carriers and their primary role was ASW against USN SSNs penetrating into the "Bastion".

  • Moskva - laid down 1962, 1967 and 1969, carried 18 Ka-25 ASW and Mi-8.
  • Kiev - laid down 1970, commissioned 1975, 1977, 1982 and 1987 (Baku, first with a PESA radar), carried 18-20 helicopters and 12 Yak-38.
  • Kuznetsov - laid down 1982, commissioned 1990, carried max 24 helicopters and 32 fixed-wing aircraft.
Yak-38 introduced in 1976 was a complete failure and served as strike aircraft because it had no radar for air-to-air and could only carry R-60 with 8km range. Fleet air cover was primarily provided by not allowing USN carriers to close to strike range.
Ka-25Ts are OTH targeting capable and can relay data to cruise missiles.

Visual scouting was used since WW2 and was still credible during the Cold War against gun based ships like the Knox class.
 

banjex

Junior Member
Registered Member
I believe the Soviet doctrine was using naval bombers for naval targeting. And yes, their carriers were intended as a mix of AshM, ASW and fleet air defence.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
CVNs are far slower to build than CVs.

You deliberately omitted Enterprise (build: time 3y 8m) from your list. Enterprise was built by Newport News immediately after Ranger (~3y ) and before America (~4y) and John F Kennedy (~4y). Enterprise was the first CVN and yet the build time was shorter than that of conventional supercarriers following it.

You also ignore the fact that build times for Nimitz and Eisenhower are ~7 years but Stennis and Truman don't exceed 5 years.

This is the larger picture that you are missing:
Carriers table.jpg

When Nimitz is laid down in 1968 USN has 9 supercarriers (4 Forrestal, 4 Kitty Hawk, 1 Enterprise) and 19 regular carriers (16 Essex, 3 Midway). When she enters service in 1975 there are only 6 regular carriers left in service and when Eisehnower enters service in 1977 only 2 are left - Midway and Coral Sea. Why?

Composition of Forrestal-class (supercarrier) air wing in 1981 - total: 86-92
  • 24 F-4 or F-14
  • 24 A-7
  • 10-12 A-6E
  • 4 KA-6D
  • 4-6 EA-6B
  • 4-6 E-2C
  • 10 S-3A
  • 6 SH-3G/H
MIdway-class carried 65-70 aircraft total. Modified Essex-class a similar amount.

Due to smaller size neither could operate F-14 or S-3 (ASW). Because minimum number of E-2 and EA-6 is 4 and ASW and SAR helicopters is 6 that leaves ~48 combat aircraft, typically 24 F-4 and 24 A-4 or A-7, or 10 A-6 with Midway class. Because of smaller size the efficiency of ratio generation was lower compared to that of supercarriers.

Rule of thumb: a supercarrier can generate twice as many sorties over twice as many days compared to regular carrier. This means that one supercarrier equals two regular carriers at any time, and four at duration.

But aircraft type also matters: Skyhawk had 4t payload and 900km max radius, A-7 had 6,5t payload and 900km max radius while A-6 had 1000km combat radius with max 8,5t payload significantly more with smaller payload. The ability to provide fleet protection with F-14 and AIM-54 was irreplaceable. F-4 wouldn't cut it. Supercarriers with A-6 and F-14 can operate at greater distances often remaining outside of physical range of enemy assets. Regular carriers weren't viable for high-threat scenarios.

Supercarriers were also designed for greater longevity compared to WW2 classes as 45-50 years was the intended service life. Forrestals and Kitty Hawks were retired earlier to make room for more capable CVNs.

The reason why CVNs take longer to build is because there is no need to build them faster. 12 CVNs is approximately the maximum number that USN can handle because every CVN requires an escort. Every Ford is entering service to match a retired Nimitz and construction workload is optimised to that schedule.

There is nothing in the history of either USN or other navies indicating that building CVNs as soon as possible is the incorrect approach. All data points to the opposite conclusions:
  • if you can build CVNs you should build CVNs
  • if you can delay building carriers to be able to build CVNs instead of CVs you should do that
  • retiring CVs in favour of CVNs is beneficial in the long term
There are specific numbers supporting these three statements, but they require more work than I'm willing to commit here.

EOT.

Ka-25Ts are OTH targeting capable and can relay data to cruise missiles.

Moskva carried up to 18 helicopters but had no cruise missiles. Its contemporary Kresta I had P-5 missiles and a hangar for 1 Ka-25. Why would Moskva need so many helicopters if the purpose was OTH targeting?

Why would Kiev need 20 helicopters if it was to provide OTH for merely eight P-500 on Kiev, Minsk and Novorossiysk and twelve on Baku? Kirov has 24 P-700 and only 3 helicopters.

Japan uses its helicopter carriers for ASW but before Hyuga and Izumo JMSDF used Haruna (1973, 1974) and Shirane (1980, 1981) each with 3 ASW helicopters as neither had any anti-ship missiles, only ASROC.

EOT.

It's all very simple once you decide that instead of being always right you should be always on the right path.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Why did the Soviets have carriers despite a strategic defensive naval posture?

You need to shoot enemy ships to have a credible defense. You can't see enemy ships at the range of your missiles without air power.
Because at that time, the USSR they were driven more by egos and they were certainly not in a 'strategic defense posture'.
They have every intent to roll over the Fulda Gap on land and quickly close in on the GIUK gap on the high seas.
 

aubzman

New Member
Registered Member
You deliberately omitted Enterprise (build: time 3y 8m) from your list. Enterprise was built by Newport News immediately after Ranger (~3y ) and before America (~4y) and John F Kennedy (~4y). Enterprise was the first CVN and yet the build time was shorter than that of conventional supercarriers following it.

You also ignore the fact that build times for Nimitz and Eisenhower are ~7 years but Stennis and Truman don't exceed 5 years.

This is the larger picture that you are missing:
View attachment 126125

When Nimitz is laid down in 1968 USN has 9 supercarriers (4 Forrestal, 4 Kitty Hawk, 1 Enterprise) and 19 regular carriers (16 Essex, 3 Midway). When she enters service in 1975 there are only 6 regular carriers left in service and when Eisehnower enters service in 1977 only 2 are left - Midway and Coral Sea. Why?

Composition of Forrestal-class (supercarrier) air wing in 1981 - total: 86-92
  • 24 F-4 or F-14
  • 24 A-7
  • 10-12 A-6E
  • 4 KA-6D
  • 4-6 EA-6B
  • 4-6 E-2C
  • 10 S-3A
  • 6 SH-3G/H
MIdway-class carried 65-70 aircraft total. Modified Essex-class a similar amount.

Due to smaller size neither could operate F-14 or S-3 (ASW). Because minimum number of E-2 and EA-6 is 4 and ASW and SAR helicopters is 6 that leaves ~48 combat aircraft, typically 24 F-4 and 24 A-4 or A-7, or 10 A-6 with Midway class. Because of smaller size the efficiency of ratio generation was lower compared to that of supercarriers.

Rule of thumb: a supercarrier can generate twice as many sorties over twice as many days compared to regular carrier. This means that one supercarrier equals two regular carriers at any time, and four at duration.

But aircraft type also matters: Skyhawk had 4t payload and 900km max radius, A-7 had 6,5t payload and 900km max radius while A-6 had 1000km combat radius with max 8,5t payload significantly more with smaller payload. The ability to provide fleet protection with F-14 and AIM-54 was irreplaceable. F-4 wouldn't cut it. Supercarriers with A-6 and F-14 can operate at greater distances often remaining outside of physical range of enemy assets. Regular carriers weren't viable for high-threat scenarios.

Supercarriers were also designed for greater longevity compared to WW2 classes as 45-50 years was the intended service life. Forrestals and Kitty Hawks were retired earlier to make room for more capable CVNs.

The reason why CVNs take longer to build is because there is no need to build them faster. 12 CVNs is approximately the maximum number that USN can handle because every CVN requires an escort. Every Ford is entering service to match a retired Nimitz and construction workload is optimised to that schedule.

There is nothing in the history of either USN or other navies indicating that building CVNs as soon as possible is the incorrect approach. All data points to the opposite conclusions:
  • if you can build CVNs you should build CVNs
  • if you can delay building carriers to be able to build CVNs instead of CVs you should do that
  • retiring CVs in favour of CVNs is beneficial in the long term
There are specific numbers supporting these three statements, but they require more work than I'm willing to commit here.

EOT.



Moskva carried up to 18 helicopters but had no cruise missiles. Its contemporary Kresta I had P-5 missiles and a hangar for 1 Ka-25. Why would Moskva need so many helicopters if the purpose was OTH targeting?

Why would Kiev need 20 helicopters if it was to provide OTH for merely eight P-500 on Kiev, Minsk and Novorossiysk and twelve on Baku? Kirov has 24 P-700 and only 3 helicopters.

Japan uses its helicopter carriers for ASW but before Hyuga and Izumo JMSDF used Haruna (1973, 1974) and Shirane (1980, 1981) each with 3 ASW helicopters as neither had any anti-ship missiles, only ASROC.

EOT.

It's all very simple once you decide that instead of being always right you should be always on the right path.
Your figures for the carrier air group shows just how much resource the carrier had to commit to self defense and how little remained for actual strike missions. The 24 A-7 and 12 A-6E provided the actual strike on target capability and the other 50-53 aircraft i.e. F14, E2, S3A and SH-3G/H helicopters are necessary to defend the carrier, whilst the remainder 4 KA-6D and 4-6 EA-6B
exist to suppress defenders that could threaten the attack aircraft so quite a small effective strike component out of 80-83 aircraft in total. I wonder just how the current carriers measure up in terms of this kind of analysis?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
CVNs have several advantages beyond projection distance. The two biggest of which are that you can dedicate more of your storage space to support your aircraft fleet, so you have much better logistical and operational capacity, and that you can park them in an area for longer, which is pretty important for their primary mission set, to be transportable bases. If China just wants carriers to deal with Taiwan they don’t need CVNs. If China wants to be able to secure the 2IC though, CVNs are indispensable. Their advantages will even show in 1IC operations. Survivability is a problem for *all* ships, not just carriers. That’s not a good reason to forgo the additional capabilities CVNs can offer over CVs given some of the longer term strategic demands facing China’s geopolitical security.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
CVNs have several advantages beyond projection distance. The two biggest of which are that you can dedicate more of your storage space to support your aircraft fleet, so you have much better logistical and operational capacity, and that you can park them in an area for longer, which is pretty important for their primary mission set, to be transportable bases. If China just wants carriers to deal with Taiwan they don’t need CVNs. If China wants to be able to secure the 2IC though, CVNs are indispensable. Their advantages will even show in 1IC operations. Survivability is a problem for *all* ships, not just carriers. That’s not a good reason to forgo the additional capabilities CVNs can offer over CVs given some of the longer term strategic demands facing China’s geopolitical security.
Nuclear ships have lower readiness and availability rates. What’s the point of having CVNs when they are not available when you need them?
 
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