00X/004 future nuclear CATOBAR carrier thread

ACuriousPLAFan

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based on Chinese traditional thinking and rational...a small sep but at a faster pace....try it a couple of times, when satisfied, go on the next...hence two at a time

No, that's not how that works lmao. Even the Project 048 isn't set in stone.

Once Fujian satisfies whatever new stuffs (to-put-it-simply) that the PLAN requires the Fujian to test and verify, then there is no reason for China to build another (half-)sister ship for Fujian. It's only a real waste of precious resources that would've been better directed towards places that are actually more useful and beneficial for the PLAN in the long term.
 

valysre

Junior Member
Registered Member
If the superstructure mockup that was dismantled recently is rebuilt for 004's superstructure, could we tell if 004 is nuclear just from that?
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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If the superstructure mockup that was dismantled recently is rebuilt for 004's superstructure, could we tell if 004 is nuclear just from that?

Mainly from the dimension of the base of the to-be-built island superstructure mockup stipulated in the tender announcement (i.e. 20 meters long), which roughly matches that of the bases of superstructure islands onboard USN CVNs.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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Registered Member
Mainly from the dimension of the base of the to-be-built island superstructure mockup stipulated in the tender announcement (i.e. 20 meters long), which roughly matches that of the bases of superstructure islands onboard USN CVNs.

To add on the above statement, these CGI models by Big Bun CG on Weibo does the illustration pretty well.

008k1Segly1hrxspubklvj33341bvwyk.jpg

From left to right:
#1 - Island superstructure of Fujian CV, actual design (34 meters long at base, 41 meters long for overhang)
#2 - Island superstructure of Fujian, but with the exhaust funnel removed, hypothetical design (23 meters long at base, 30 meters long for overhang)
#3 - Island superstructure that is a further squeeze of the 2nd one, hypothetical design (22 meters long at base, 19 meters long for overhang)
#4 - Island superstructure of Ford-class CVN, actual design (18 meters long at base, 23 meters long for overhang)

From the tender announcement document, it seems that the most straightforward design from Fujian would be #3. Of course, being #4-esque for the 004's island superstructure is certainly possible.

All we can do now is to wait until late-2025 and see what comes up in that particular site at Wuhan.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
There are three changes from Fujian that need to be tested before moving toward serial production of a hypothetical main carrier.
  1. nuclear propulsion - Fujian is conventionally powered
  2. supercarrier architecture - Fujian is not a proper supercarrier
  3. UCAV optimisation - Fujian is optimised for manned aircraft
Each of the three carriers had an elementary task:
  • 001 - acquire a carrier to learn carrier ops
  • 002 - build a carrier to learn how to build a functional carrier, therefore a known design must be chosen
  • 003 - design and build a carrier to learn how to design and build a carrier, therefore a new but similar design must be chosen
001 to 003 is a well understood learning curve in any design & build enterprise so 004 will be the first opportunity where new solutions can be introduced without disruption.

I would argue that supercarrier architecture - a larger deck with three lifts, matching as closely as possible Ford layout - is much harder to achieve than nuclear propulsion. Nuclear propulsion is relatively straightforward and provides savings of storage space which in turn allow for more flexibility when designing the interior. Supercarrier layout on the other hand requires training some 1000 people in completely new level of intensity of operations.

Fujian probably has 50% of Fords peak sortie generation rate and growing that number is disproportionately complex which is why it took this long to improve it. What Ford achieved is a lesson from decades of service and PLAN is in the unique position of not having to go through all that time and effort to implement the lessons.

UCAV optimisation is another issue that I haven't seen discussed because most discussions on PLAN carriers focus on the wet dreams of fanboys, and those tend to resemble scripts to their beloved childhood mega-robot cartoon series rather than what the discussion is in actual design groups of people who come up with new carriers.

UCAVs change everything because they eliminate the most valuable and most vulnerable element in manned flight - the pilot. You can greatly increase tempo because AI pilots don't need rest (but your crews do) only refuel and rearm. You can relax safety procedures which are aimed at protecting pilots. UCAVs can be crashed and discarded if necessary. They can take off and land at greater g loads so the tempo is higher there as well. Probably the entire deck will a have to be redesigned to allow for regular tempo manned ops and higher tempo unmanned ops. Because UCAV will only need decision nodes to be manned there is less need for manned planes in each sortie lot.

USN carriers are built for 50 years of service. There simply isn't room for designing an outdated carrier at the theshold to a completely new era in combat air operations. I don't know to what extent Ford's designers took UCAVs into account but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. Ford is a 2000s design and 2010s brought a complete change in thinking as AI began to bring results. 2030s are when we will see UCAVs employed as loyal wingmen on a regular basis and from there it's autonomous operations in a manned-unmanned networks in the 2040s.

If 004 was laid down in 2025 then it would enter service in 2032-34 at the absolute earliest. If it isn't considering UCAV operations then it's like designing an ironclad after HMS Dreadnought. I think that may force some kind of pause in thinking and I wouldn't be surprised if Type 076 was a test ship for some of those solutions. Perhaps the necessary redesign isn't a major issue but it can't be certain until there is some testing done.

To add on the above statement, these CGI models by Big Bun CG on Weibo does the illustration pretty well.

View attachment 136451

From left to right:
#1 - Island superstructure of Fujian CV, actual design (34 meters long at base, 41 meters long for overhang)
#2 - Island superstructure of Fujian, but with the exhaust funnel removed, hypothetical design (23 meters long at base, 30 meters long for overhang)
#3 - Island superstructure that is a further squeeze of the 2nd one, hypothetical design (22 meters long at base, 19 meters long for overhang)
#4 - Island superstructure of Ford-class CVN, actual design (18 meters long at base, 23 meters long for overhang)

#4 is completely wrong. Ford's island looks like this - don't just look at it, try to understand why it looks like it does and what's going on inside.
Ford island 1.jpg
Ford island 2.jpg
Ford island 3.jpg
Notice the four levels of the bridge of which only one - main bridge - extends to both sides. The other three are for deck operations so their field of view concerns deck space. #4 is horribly inefficient design for high volume operations.

And this is how it's placed on deck
Ford island 4.jpg

If you look at what approach paths aircraft take it seems natural to want a bridge that covers 180 degrees toward the port to have full view of deck. Ford's island has the view obstructed by radar panels. If you go back to the close-ups you'll easily see where the internal space is taken by all the electronics and wiring and cooling systems, as well as service access.

If China is smart they'll lose the main phased arrays on the island mast, which is exactly what the director of Ford development program indicated as the main thing he would change in the final design. Carriers really don't need to have the type of radar that AAW escorts do. It serves no purpose other than waste space, energy and money. They are an equivalent of a huge beacon that says "right here" stuck on top of the main asset in the task force. Without the radars the island can be made even smaller and the bridge can be arranged more efficiently. Without main radars the island also is much less top-heavy which lightens the structure, reduces need for space and makes it possible to move the island to a more convenient spot on the deck. There is no thing such as "too much deck space" on a carrier so even if it allows to move it a few meters toward the starboard it is a gain.

At this point, considering how much work optimised design requires adding nuclear propulsion is a no-brainer. The French could do it with De Gaulle and that's a barely functional design.

And as for future designs - UCAVs will change everything. No pilots means no human limitation for operating conditions. What kinds of carriers and exactly how many of them do you really need if your aircraft can stay in the air for 24 or 72 hours with refueling or fly missions that require 6 or 8 hours of flight each way? There always will be room for traditional operations where manned fighters will be necessary even if only as decision nodes enabling 10x or 20x the amount of UCAVs. But there are so many other options available once you take the human out of the equation that it validates rethinking the entire concept.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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#4 is completely wrong. Ford's island looks like this - don't just look at it, try to understand why it looks like it does and what's going on inside.
View attachment 136466
View attachment 136467
View attachment 136468
Notice the four levels of the bridge of which only one - main bridge - extends to both sides. The other three are for deck operations so their field of view concerns deck space. #4 is horribly inefficient design for high volume operations.

And this is how it's placed on deck
View attachment 136469

If you look at what approach paths aircraft take it seems natural to want a bridge that covers 180 degrees toward the port to have full view of deck. Ford's island has the view obstructed by radar panels. If you go back to the close-ups you'll easily see where the internal space is taken by all the electronics and wiring and cooling systems, as well as service access.


Island concept #4 which you are talking about takes many of the cues and characteristics of 003's island and basically compacts it longitudinally which would be expected for an island design for a nuclear carrier not needing an exhaust, and reduces the APAR set from four to three ala Ford aesthetics.

In terms of the location of the windows in island concept #4, they're not particularly different in location or positioning to island concept #3, except being one or two decks higher.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Discussion continued in this thread to avoid derailing the original 6th-gen fighter thread.

I am curious now if we will have 2 6th gen programs. One for Air Force and the other that’s a little smaller and for navy. If they are doing a STOVL fighter then it would make sense for the next one to be able to takeoff from 076 and aircraft carrier.
I do recall a certain Yankee & Co. podcast from sometime during or immediately after Fujian's 1st sea trial in May this year, of which they discussed about China's next aircraft carrier (004).

Somewhere in the podcast (I don't know where the podcast is, as I only heard that particular segment on the 004 from a cutout video (切片)), Yankee & Co. did suggest one possible option for the PLAN, where China's carrier-based 6th-gen manned fighter could be a J-XDH (namely a further developed, navalized variant/version of J-XD, i.e. J-XD海) instead of a PLAN 6th-gen fighter design that is completely separate from the PLAAF's J-XD.

Yankee & Co. reasoned that having two separate 5th-gen fighter programs right now is already really not easy/quite challenging (挺不容易了) (which I believe to be referring to money, manpower and material resource allocation and usage). Hence, they reasoned that it could/would be much easier for the PLAN to "hitch a ride" (搭便车) off the PLAAF's J-XD program.

They also mentioned that during the FC-31's first flight in 2012, PLAN representatives were already present at the site. That was still many years away from what we associate with the carrier-based J-35. Therefore, it is quite reasonable if the PLAN decides to repeat the same for the development of their own carrier-based 6th-gen manned fighters.

View attachment 138187

On the topic of 004 - Yankee & Co. mentioned that Fujian was designed with the J-35 operations in mind before blueprint finalization sometime in the mid/late-2010s. However, once the need to operate 6th-gen manned fighters onboard Fujian arises, then adaptability modifications will be needed sometime in the (not so recent) future (i.e. similar to Liaoning during her latest MLU at Dalian to enable J-35 operations).

Speaking of the (concern regarding dimension and flight characteristics of) carrier-based 6th-gen manned fighters around and onboard 004, Yankee & Co. suggested that with the significant advancement of avionics, flight controls and automated landing systems (autoland), compromises involved will not need to be as big.

Some key points from Yankee & Co.'s podcast on what China's next aircraft carrier could be, simply-put:
- Fujian, despite deserving the title of "supercarrier", is too small to be sufficient. 004 and subsequent CVs definitely will be larger.
- There are sayings (source undetermined) where while a 150 thousand-ton supercarrier is likely to have slightly/moderately higher price tag than a 100 thousand-ton supercarrier, it is expected to have the combat effectiveness that is likely to be 1.8 or even 2 times that of the latter (namely, greater cost-effectiveness).
- Nuclear propulsion for future Chinese supercarriers is an unavoidable path (conventional propulsion has pretty much reached its celling for large-sized carrier propulsion with Fujian).
- The number of nuclear reactors onboard the Nimitz-class decided back in the 1960s (two A4Ws per hull) is more of a political (and financial) decision instead of an engineering/technical decision (as initially, they were meant to be powered by four A3Ws per hull).
- China can follow the US with regarding to the development of nuclear-powered supercarriers, but shouldn't do it "to the Tee".
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Having it be nuclear powered means you have more space for aviation fuel and actual aircraft. It also means you can operate at maximum speed for prolonged periods of time without refueling. That is important for making quick deployments.
 

lcloo

Captain
US aircraft carrier's sizes is restricted by the width of the Panama canal since passage through the canal is normal routine for USN ships, and since PLAN ships are not likely to go through Panama canal, its future nuclear power super carriers can have wider beam and thus larger displacement.

To match the number of aircraft onboard Ford class super carrier, PLAN may need an aircraft carrier with 120,000 to 150,000 tons displacement capable of carrying 90 to 100 plus aircraft of all types.

What China needs is a powerful nuclear propulsion that is capable of moving the ship at 30 knots and above. Looking beyond 2030 for such break through.
 
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