Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)
- Thread starter A Bar Brother
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Equation
Lieutenant General
Your lack of FAITH, is disturbing! No, I do not need to read Russian ad copy about Mig 1.44 or SU-47, to make "observations about the vortex created above the wing of PAK-FA 04, by the Vortex Generator, which is standard on ANY fighter aircraft today. Some using canards to generate the vortex, others using LERX, samo, samo, really you should be able to figure this out as all the pretty pictures of these beautiful airplanes pulling lots of Gs have those very same mini tornadoes which picture the flow being energized, accelerated, in order to lower air pressure over the top of the wing.
further you have misinterpreted what the LEVCON does, it is a leading edge vortex generator, which also serves as a control surface, which does in fact contribute to the "rolling moment" of the aircraft, left or right as they may be "assymetrically" deployed.
That in fact is unique, and is where the Russians have coined the phrase "LEVCON" or leading edge vortex generator, which also function as a "control surface". The AFB is a pilot, I DO understand a great deal more about lift and how it is created, (as that is my "Magnum Opus", or as I have stated and stand by my statement, "I can see lift"), than most of the folks who make comments about things they really don't understand, hence my desire to see a "little blue smoke" from the J-20, and yes I am referencing the "colored" airflow from the wind-tunnel, and no I don't imagine the Chinese will be releasing that any time soon, but I am absolutely positive that US engineers have closely modeled the J-20 and understand its aerodynamics very well, as they have also modeled the PAK-FA and understand its aerodynamics?? its not "witchcraft", it is in fact science, hard repeatable science, which is very well understood by those who care to find out???
b787
Captain
as a qualitative analysis yes it is very easy to know what a LEVCON does, but as a quantitative analysis a picture is not enough.
A picture or a video will give you understanding if you know a few facts, if you know highly swept wings shed strong vortices, you will understand LEVCONs very well and very quickly as a leading edge flap married to a LEX; it is easy, specially if you know winglets basics or canard basics, it is not something a fan like me should not know.
However quantitative analysis is different, for that you need numbers, simulations and wind tunnel results, data you won`t get easily from Russia, and even NASA.
The only thing i will say is Sukhoi must have seen advantages to LEVCONs thet did not see on LEX (su-27), lex canard combo (su-33, Su-30SM, Su-34 etc etc) and canard (su-47/S-37) the details are difficult to see, because you can not know the quantitative advantages or disadvantages from watching pictures, you can only guess.
Thus if we argue advantages and disadvantages you will basically will guess plus you will annoy people, and in this forum comparing aircraft is not allowed, thus is better to have a more moderate view
so i prefer to think PAKFA is like my lovely girlfriend Sveta
are not both aerodynamically beautiful?
by , on Flickr
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as a qualitative analysis yes it is very easy to know what a LEVCON does, but as a quantitative analysis a picture is not enough.
A picture or a video will give you understanding if you know a few facts, if you know highly swept wings shed strong vortices, you will understand LEVCONs very well and very quickly as a leading edge flap married to a LEX; it is easy, specially if you know winglets basics or canard basics, it is not something a fan like me should not know.
However quantitative analysis is different, for that you need numbers, simulations and wind tunnel results, data you won`t get easily from Russia, and even NASA.
The only thing i will say is Sukhoi must have seen advantages to LEVCONs thet did not see on LEX (su-27), lex canard combo (su-33, Su-30SM, Su-34 etc etc) and canard (su-47/S-37) the details are difficult to see, because you can not know the quantitative advantages or disadvantages from watching pictures, you can only guess.
Thus if we argue advantages and disadvantages you will basically will guess plus you will annoy people, and in this forum comparing aircraft is not allowed, thus is better to have a more moderate view
so i prefer to think PAKFA is like my lovely girlfriend Sveta
are not both aerodynamically beautiful?
by , on Flickr
I would NOT presume to argue with BD, Jeff Head, Jura, Navy RECO, or Forbin about Naval matters, or Master Scratch on most anything. As a pilot, its obvious to me that you have an incomplete understanding of aerodynamics, you have never flown an aircraft of any type, you have never maintained best glide speed, you have never maintained a proper approach speed, you have never increased the angle of attack in a power on stall through the stall, and felt the often violent and sudden "break"??? and NO you don't need to be a math whiz to do any of that, you need to understand aerodynamics, you NEED to develop the "seat of your pants".
ALL WINGS, create lift in the very same way, certain designs stall very gently in more of a "mush", other wing designs break very suddenly and completely as the air flowing across the upper surface of the wing "departs" or "detaches". I have flown both types, our old 172 would hang on and hang on and on, but when she departed, she would often roll to the left or right in a power on stall, normally to the left. end off topic
I understand lift, I understand drag, I understand thrust, I understand load, and load factors, because that has been my passion. You would presume to tell me that I need to read Russian propaganda in order to understand the aerodynamics of PAK-FA, that B787 is pure Bravo Sierra, in the process you show yourself to be "insolent/disrespectful, I often choose to ignore this. I love the PAK-FA, I have never said a bad word about LEVCONS, yet you put words in my mouth that I have never spoken.
PAK-FA is a program that has VERY significant teething issues, structural cracking/failure, a very significant fire that destroyed the fifth flying prototype, and it has not returned to flight yet, in spite of "pirating" the fuselage of the sixth prototype. (Just as I told you they would!)
In the future I would encourage you to show due respect to your elders, senior posters. I spend a great deal of time and thought crafting each post, my integrity is on display with every post I make, if I am wrong, I correct my post, often pointing out my own mistakes in the interest of absolute accuracy, always including a very heartfelt apology.
I am sure your girlfriend is lovely and aerodynamic, and I will take your word on that. No ONE on the SDF has spoken more highly of the very elegant PAK-FA than the Air Force Brat, I have declared her the most attractive of all the would be and real world fifth gens, the LEVCONs are a stroke of genious, though likely adding complexity to the construction process and FCS??? I just don't get where you feel the need to criticize the astute and possibly brilliant observations I often make, and I'm being humble??? could you maybe lighten up and be a brother?
and many, many thanks for the lovely pictures, really, thank you, bro bax
I did not see a picture of Sveta, try to post it again, then we shall see if she bears any resemblance to the lovely PAK-FA?
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b787
Captain
I do not understand why you take my opinion as offensive or disrespectful.
if you felt offended well sorry never was that my intention.
I am a fan, true, not a pilot, not a mechanic, i am an engineer but not in a trade related to aerospace, true, I am in love with a cute Russian girl only that, i have never flown even in a Tupolev, true, i have only had several Russian girlfriends (the others were like MiGs and Sukhois too), Sveta is the one i like the most, i like aviation only that.
i can not answer you the questions sorry, you will need to ask some one else, sorry
And about Sveta believe me she is not as forgiving as PAKFA is to its pilots, but aerodynamic, believe me she is
and like PAKFA she makes me fly highstaying with her is like this song
I do not understand why you take my opinion as offensive or disrespectful.
if you felt offended well sorry never was that my intention.
I am a fan, true, not a pilot, not a mechanic, i am an engineer but not in a trade related to aerospace, true, I am in love with a cute Russian girl only that, i have never flown even in a Tupolev, true, i have only had several Russian girlfriends (the others were like MiGs and Sukhois too), Sveta is the one i like the most, i like aviation only that.
i can not answer you the questions sorry, you will need to ask some one else, sorry
And about Sveta believe me she is not as forgiving as PAKFA is to its pilots, but aerodynamic, believe me she is
staying with her is like this song
Fair enough, as a pilot you don't want to have to rely on your bird's forgiveness to often, so you must bring enough effort to the game to have "understanding". There are lots of fellows who failed to bring that, and their tombstones are fair tribute to their lack of "attention"
My engineering is on a practical, not mathematical level, its like a mountain stream, it flows without regard to mathematics, the rock that divides that flow has neither passion nor feeling. Yet the astute observer finds this rock to be a most elegant teacher of the passionate and beautiful science of "fluid dynamics"
Jura The idiot
General
Sorry, but for my taste why do Russian news recently are too much overcrowded by words like:
will, would, should, could, eventually & if ... ? There will be Su-35s in PLAAF service, there will be PAK-FAs delivered, there will be SSJs in Iran, there will be a PAK-DA, a new naval fighter, a PAK-TA super-hyper transport, there will be Tu-16M2 ... there will be, there would, there should, there could, eventually ... if !
Sad, but Amen.
Deino
will, would, should, could, eventually & if ... ? There will be Su-35s in PLAAF service, there will be PAK-FAs delivered, there will be SSJs in Iran, there will be a PAK-DA, a new naval fighter, a PAK-TA super-hyper transport, there will be Tu-16M2 ... there will be, there would, there should, there could, eventually ... if !
Sad, but Amen.
Deino