CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

Blackstone

Brigadier
Fzgfzy has some fresh information regarding the Type 002:
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~70,000 tons (likely standard displacement, which would mean 80,000+ tons full load), three catapults and two elevators. There's some speculation saying this is a sign that construction on the 002 is underway.
Looks like the USS Forrestal (CV59), and about the same fully loaded displacement too.

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Blitzo

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Very conservative, looks like an other Liaoning-hull.

Tbh it doesn't even look like Liaoning; there is no aft/port flight deck on the side of the landing strip... which is a bizarre design choice and different to Liaoning too.

I wouldn't take fzgfzy's sketches as any sort of solid decision for what the ships will definitely look like I think
 

Iron Man

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Tbh it doesn't even look like Liaoning; there is no aft/port flight deck on the side of the landing strip... which is a bizarre design choice and different to Liaoning too.

I wouldn't take fzgfzy's sketches as any sort of solid decision for what the ships will definitely look like I think
What happened to the value of big shrimps? :)
 

Totoro

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the sketch is clearly a quick n dirty affair. it *may* be representative of general layout, like the number of catapults and elevators, position of the island, but the peculiar stuff like lack of deck area is more likely just artistic license than anything else. it is inconceivable really there isn't an overhang with some parking space portside.
 

Blitzo

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What happened to the value of big shrimps? :)

Nothing's happened. I hold immense value to their statements, and his statements about construction of 002, 075 and the displacement figures are ones that I immediately take in great seriousness.

But I generally do not take speculative sketches (done by anyone, even big shrimps) with as much gravity, partly due to past experience of how inaccurate those turned out to be, and partly because the nature of sketches convey a significantly greater amount of detail and information and a few sentence long description, and we do not know how much of that detail that can be conveyed via a speculative sketch or image is via the person's belief or information of what a particular ship's core charactersitics may be, or a reflection of something like their artistic ability, or them filling in certain blanks (or leaving open certain blanks) in a ship's design.
 

Blitzo

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too bad for just two elevators. i was hoping for 2+1 layout, 2 elevators starboard, 1 portside, with island moved aft as much as possible. but i guess that's hard to do on a 70.000 ton vessel. (then again forrestal managed 4 elevators on 80.000 tons)

I think it will be interesting to see how big the elevators are.

If they are large enough to lift two folded J-15s at the same time with a bit of room to spare then I think two elevators would not be disappointing at all.
If the elevators are the same size as that of Liaoning however, then that would be a bit of a relative limitation IMO.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Barring any unexpected delays or technical quagmires, this could potentially propel Chinese naval aviation to the same league as, if not one above, the Indian Navy. Not much can be done, however, regarding the IN's massive edge in experience and skill.
 

Blitzo

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Barring any unexpected delays or technical quagmires, this could potentially propel Chinese naval aviation to the same league as, if not one above, the Indian Navy. Not much can be done, however, regarding the IN's massive edge in experience and skill.

That is all somewhat debatable, especially going forwards post 2020 when I expect to see how well the overall programme management and ability to sustain carrier operations between the two navies and the two nation's respective shipbuilding industries are, which would not only translate into their differing ability to develop and scale up skills and experience, but also the availability and capability of the relevant hardware.

In particular, I would be interested to see how well the Indian Navy and their contractors manage the INS Vikrant going forward into commissioning, let alone the INS Vishal which by the sounds of it is meant to be a far larger and more complex ship, in context of the Indian shipbuilding industry's management of other complex projects in the 2000s and early 2010s so far...

Of course, direct comparisons between nations are discouraged, in particularly India and China..
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
That is all somewhat debatable, especially going forwards post 2020 when I expect to see how well the overall programme management and ability to sustain carrier operations between the two navies and the two nation's respective shipbuilding industries are, which would not only translate into their differing ability to develop and scale up skills and experience, but also the availability and capability of the relevant hardware.

Yes, agreed in principle. Of course, developments in big-ticket naval materiel is always a fluid dynamic and thus direct comparisons are not necessarily telling of the future. Although I would still point out that the IN has access to a far greater supply chain (i.e. US/Russia/Europe) for weapons and equipment and that the INS Vikrant seems to be further along than the 001A.

In particular, I would be interested to see how well the Indian Navy and their contractors manage the INS Vikrant going forward into commissioning, let alone the INS Vishal which by the sounds of it is meant to be a far larger and more complex ship, in context of the Indian shipbuilding industry's management of other complex projects in the 2000s and early 2010s so far...

Of course, direct comparisons between nations are discouraged, in particularly India and China..

INS Vishal was originally (and could very well still) slated to be a nuclear-powered, EMALS-equipped carrier in the ~65000 ton range. This would give it a credible edge over both the 001A and 002 in terms of endurance and strike capability.

Anyways, my post was OT.
 

Blitzo

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Yes, agreed in principle. Of course, developments in big-ticket naval materiel is always a fluid dynamic and thus direct comparisons are not necessarily telling of the future. Although I would still point out that the IN has access to a far greater supply chain (i.e. US/Russia/Europe) for weapons and equipment and that the INS Vikrant seems to be further along than the 001A.

Having a more diverse and international supply chain I think is not necessarily a positive; it means your subsystems are at the whims of foreign govts, it complicates integration of a diverse array of systems, and any delays of your subcontractors and suppliers means delaying your ship's construction and fitting out. This is unfortunately something that has been a prevalent issue in previous IN ship programmes. Of course, if one's own domestic industry is unable to provide the necessary subsystems then contracting out to foreign suppliers is a necessity, but I'd hardly say "having access" to foreign suppliers is any sort of advantage. A better advantage would be the ability to source everything domestically so you can control the supply chain with more discipline.

INS Vikrant was laid down in 2009 (seven years ago!) and launched in its completed state (island and completed ski jump and completed hull and flight deck) last year in June. 001A was laid down, based on satellite photos, likely some time in April last year, and the island, flight deck and hull are all near complete and will likely be launched within the next half year, and I wouldn't be surprised if the state of completion of 001A's upcoming launch compared to INS Vikrant proper launch last year in June is broadly similar.

From laying down to a launch of a similar state of completedness, 001A would have thus taken about two years, while INS Vikrant took six years, all the while 001A is a significantly larger ship.
Of course, 001A is also an evolution of the Liaoning design while INS Vikrant is a fresh design by the IN, but even then the sheer difference in rate of completion and the overall state of the two nation's shipbuilding industries, and looking at other similar projects of the two navies (such as destroyers, frigates etc) in the past, I think one is able to project just what the trajectories and capabilities of their shipbuilding industries are for these sort of big ticket items.



INS Vishal was originally (and could very well still) slated to be a nuclear-powered, EMALS-equipped carrier in the ~65000 ton range. This would give it a credible edge over both the 001A and 002 in terms of endurance and strike capability.

Anyways, my post was OT.

At this stage I don't think anyone knows what the INS Vishal will look like and the IN still seems to be drawing up a list of subsuppliers and foreign contractors to potentially be involved in the project.

They're planning for an early 2020s commissioning date (depending on which source one reads), but given the current state of the programme that we know, not to mention the IN's past implementation of past and current less complex projects, I would be expect them to commission INS Vikrant more likely by or fater 2025, if not late 2020s.
 
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