Ukrainian War Developments

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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Perhaps for some reason they are not flying continuous patrols over Ukraine and US/NATO gives them a green light to launch the drones when an opening presents itself?
this is 100% a problem. RAF lacks sufficient tankers to maintain continuous tactical air coverage over Ukraine which is the 2nd largest country in Europe (Russia is 1st). Ukraine typically would be unable to take advantage of that because it has no AWACs and its radar stations were taken down on day 1.

However, they did not account for foreign AWAC intervention, which they should have, and they're still unable to sever lines of communication between Ukraine and EU which allows data feeding to Ukrainian military.
 

yongpengsuen

Junior Member
Registered Member
What does not kill you makes you stronger. The war will make both Russia and Ukraine stronger. Countries that don't fight to weaken and degenerate.

 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
From what I remember, they did take into account cluster munition cruise missiles and ballistic missiles. This was a paper gaming China's invasion of Taiwan where the US intervenes. They tabulated what it would take to keep US airbases suppressed. The premise was that China would have to bomb them almost every day.
Its the US who are writing a lot of copium for themselves. You would be able to easily find another US paper that would tell you that the US can permanently take out all Chinese airbases in 48 hours.

I have read the same type of crap from the Indian media. Quoted from retired Indian military men. Only, it was more absurd. They said that it would take 1-2 Indian Storm Shadow missile(s) to permanently take out a PLAAF air base. But it would take the Chinese 50 ballistic missiles to take out an Indian airbase for only 24 hours.

Read what you want, but do keep a critical mind.
 
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reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
This has me convinced that the degree of western support relies heavily on how well your own forces are doing, and to always remember that past performance is not indicative of future performance. This post goes into the political problems of this intervention and why it is not going according to Russian ideal:

Point 1:

On day 1-3, western public opinion was of no intervention, condemnation, sanctions, but essentially abandonment of Ukraine because of Russian quick gains, gaining air superiority, and destruction of Ukrainian supply lines with long range standoff fire. Russia was making unprecedented (literally, without historical precedent) gains.

After day 3, Russians are getting bogged down by surprising Ukrainian resistance, air superiority was not converted into air supremacy, they are failing to control the narrative, and they made mistakes. Yes, Russians are holding back (more on that in point 2) but that only represents a political mistake rather than a purely military mistake. This emboldened foreign adversaries of Russia which decided to do weapons sales, sending 'volunteers' and even talk of direct intervention.

The problem with Russia is that they're on a ticking clock due to foreign intervention. They have a dilemma: do they carpet bomb/shell for a few weeks to soften the enemy, or do they risk heavy casualties, a PR failure and foreign intervention?

This reminds me of when KMT tried doing this in the Battle of Shanghai. They failed because they did not slow down the Imperial Japanese Army sufficiently, foreigners were uninterested and thus KMT simply wasted their German equipped divisions. Same is true for KMT resistance against CPC. There was little pro-KMT intervention because despite all their intervention they were still doomed, foreigners lost interest, and that was their end.

Point 2:

Russia got too arrogant by its previous successes in Georgia, Syria and Ukraine. They thought a little carpet bombing, some PGM strikes and wiping out encircled units with tanks, combined with propaganda, is enough to get the rest to surrender on contact. This is a good strategy against confused, divided enemies to reduce the cost of military adventure. However, they did not consider what Ukraine has been doing since 2014.

Since 2014, Ukraine has been getting more and more radicalized. Unfortunately, by taking Crimea and splitting Donetsk and Luhansk, Russia actually lost popular support from the rest of Ukraine by taking away mobile Russian speaking minorities. So Ukraine lost territory, but they gained political advantage by now demographically consolidating around the pro-west Ukrainian speaking right. It also gave Russia a false sense of security by making them think they had enough popular support to disintegrate opposition on contact. Actually, they themselves got rid of all the weak units that would disintegrate on contact... and left only the hardened ones.

The other part is, they are unable to defend their narrative and are still allowing enemy points of view to shape the discussion. They have neither been able to promote their own point of view or silence the enemy point of view. This is a total loss on the information front which again, results in problems from point 1: going from tepid opposition and condemnation to active resistance.

Lessons for the future:

1. Winning or losing is snowballing. If you win hard, it keeps foreign opinion down and shuts up opposition. But if you start losing even a little, you will soon find foreign weapons, insurgents or even a no fly zone near you.

2. Do not assume adversaries are going to surrender upon attaining mere air superiority and a little carpet bombing. Only air supremacy and total devastation will do. This is going to result in bad PR but...

3. Media control is absolutely vital. If your side has no hope of shaping the narrative then don't even try to, just go for it. Holding back means failure because they sure won't hold back and you'll be demonized just the same.

4. Prior success could harden enemy resolve which is important when considering foreign intervention. Russian past successes set them up for bigger obstacles today.

5. Never underestimate nationalism. Do not assume that a democracy is actually a democracy, it could simply be a fascist state in disguise, and while fascist states often fail over the long run, they can still deal significant damage before going down.
Agree with all your points. However, if you step back and look at this at a higher level, the Russians will prevail at the end. People will forecast doom for the Russians as soon as they bog down, but at the end, it does not really mean a lot. The Ukrainians are surrounded and in cities. The Russians have by-passed these cities and able to move in to Kiev from the North. If you look at how the war was fought in Syria, a group that is surrounded and in a hot war will quickly run out of everything. Ammo will be the first to go in a few days. I looked at some pictures of bunch of dudes on this thread last night, they were firing their anti-tank RPG like it was free candy. Did not see any hits. most probably barely have any training. As they did in Syria, you keep firing into the encirclement and they must fire back. They will quickly run out of ammo and have to surrender. food and water will go next. With the population inside, how long will supplies last?

At the end, the Russians have many level of escalation they can raise. The Ukrainians fought well for a group composed of mostly non-professional soldiers and the Russians have bogged down a bit, but at the end, the Russians will prevail.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Agree with all your points. However, if you step back and look at this at a higher level, the Russians will prevail at the end. People will forecast doom for the Russians as soon as they bog down, but at the end, it does not really mean a lot. The Ukrainians are surrounded and in cities. The Russians have by-passed these cities and able to move in to Kiev from the North. If you look at how the war was fought in Syria, a group that is surrounded and in a hot war will quickly run out of everything. Ammo will be the first to go in a few days. I looked at some pictures of bunch of dudes on this thread last night, they were firing their anti-tank RPG like it was free candy. Did not see any hits. most probably barely have any training. As they did in Syria, you keep firing into the encirclement and they must fire back. They will quickly run out of ammo and have to surrender. food and water will go next. With the population inside, how long will supplies last?

At the end, the Russians have many level of escalation they can raise. The Ukrainians fought well for a group composed of mostly non-professional soldiers and the Russians have bogged down a bit, but at the end, the Russians will prevail.
The problem is that delays and weak information control have made foreign intervention politically feasible and actual physical losses and positioning have made it militarily conceivable. If RAF was able to at least stop fixed wing strikers by day 3, it would've gone much better for them, but they did not.

But yes, they have also done many things right:

1. surrounding major cities and bombarding them into submission without allowing them reprieve or a break. They're now going into war of attrition mode - which they will win - rather than the COIN/hybrid warfare mode they've slipped into since Chechnya.

2. cutting all links between east and west Ukraine by either blowing or allowing the Ukrainians to blow bridges on the Dnieper river.

3. taking control of highways and countryside first rather than simply rushing cities to deny strategic depth and resupply.
 

PikeCowboy

Junior Member
And why do private Chinese citizens have to take the government's position?

Popular support for a government's position in matters of foreign affairs is the rationale and strength behind the nationalist movement. When private citizens diverge in their individual management of foreign affairs the nation's foreign policy becomes weak and ineffective, often to the detriment of its own people.
 
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