Civilian aviation presents a different set of challenges and optimizations from military aviation. Your engine efficiency, reliability, durability, and maintainability all have to be much higher for civilian engines than for military engines if you want the engine to succeed commercially and be competitive against options already on the market. The WS-20 wasn’t designed for these requirements.
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
The WS-20 may not be designed for those commercial demands but is the CJ-1000A somewhat efficient and competitive? Not to mention, safe and reliable enough for commercial?
Actually I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians did export the PD-14 engine to China in the condition the Chinese wouldn't export these engines outside China.
The CJ-1000A is supposed to be much more advanced than WS-20. But yeah the program is delayed like heck.
The CJ-1000A is supposed to be much more advanced than WS-20. But yeah the program is delayed like heck.
The CJ-1000A is designed for commercial use from the ground up.
Though it seems the design they ended up committing to is also more advanced than when at the inception of the program.
Ws-20 could only be used on a militarized version of C919, like a future maritime patrol plane, AWACS, tactical aerial command post, etc. Well, PLA generals still ride on upgraded Boeing 737-300 and Tu-154s, so a militarized C919 with WS-20 engine could have some market value because these old 737s and Tu-154s from the 1980s will have to be replaced eventually.
The Boeing P-8 and E-7, both based on the 737, use existing civilian CFM56 engines... If the C919 is to be used as a platform for AWACs/AEW, refueling, or battle management, I don't think they'd need WS-20s...
WS-20 is CFM56-based (mid 70's to mid 90's). CJ-1000 is inspired by (some may say copied from) LEAP (geared. mid '10's). I remember the CJ-1000 specs from Aviation Week being a tiny bit less than the LEAP-1C). CJ-2000 doesn't add much techically. WS-20 is needed to fill the gap until CJ-1000 is ready in 10 years time (with some luck), I argue that WS-20 may be a more important product than the CJ-1000 although much less glamorous today (but neither will the CJ-1000 be in 2030).
I really don't see CJ-1000 being a commercially succesful product (think ARJ-700 with heavy/oversized engines). Given two extremely similar products A (LEAP) and B (CJ), if A is both proven and reliable and comparably priced, if you are a non-Chinese airline, why would you buy B? No brainer. However, having CJ as a Plan B will ensure that the U.S. cannot think about banning LEAP/PW-1000 sales to China. CJ-1000's real function is the same as ARJ-700 (MD-90) and C-919. The starting point and development of a internationally competitive aviation eco-system especially in the people, technical/testing proficiency, and regulatory areas. How turbofans will evolve beyond 2035 is hard to assess given a push for green factors for both genuine environmental concerns and also as a easy non-tariff barrier excuse.
Here is a good link to where CJ-3000 maybe headed.
WS-20 represents an adequate engine for the next 20 years (the equivalent of a 28-nm based or a 10-year old car, nothing to brag about) and I can see it enjoying a healthy production run. By the time its cycles are used up, time to replace it (and the plane) with the successor to CJ-1000/2000. Using a mature design means very little room for growth but also lower manufacturing cost which compensates for the extra fuel/range/payload costs somewhat. For the military, mission objective is everything. A 10% surcharge for extra reliability, cheaper/easier maintenance, and time-to-market is nothing to a big country. For civilian airlines, 3% difference is a lot if most plane flies 12+ hours everyday.
The problem with CJ-1000 is that China was too backward and missed the window to deliver the engine (i.e. today). Ten years ago AECC gave a totally unrealistic date that no sane person believed in (akin to India putting an astronaut [alive and coming back?] on the moon in 5 years) but got the funding and everybody won. The CJ-1000 is more like 10-nm today. If I am signing the checks, my long-term goal is on the CJ-3000 (2-nm chip) with CJ-1000 being just a necessary stepping stone to get there. By 2040, perhaps China will be close to equal footing with GE/PW/RR and a brand new game with brand new rules start.
You're sprinkling all these model numbers causally with confusions and mixed-ups.
WS-20 is for military aircraft and CJ-1000 civilian ones. The former is targeted for Y-20, the latter C919. I haven't seen any credible sources saying these two are meant to be substitutes for each other. CJ-2000 is targeted for twin-aisle civilian aircraft or C929. There is also a CJ-500, which is said to be a scaled-down version of CJ-1000, targeted for regional jet such as ARJ21 or future upgrades. The work on all three CJ's have started. CJ-3000 appears to be more of a design proposal at this stage and it's hard to say if it ever goes to the development stage.
Will also add that he’s fudging the WS-20’s design lineage quite a bit. The WS-10’s engine core was based on studying the CFM-56, but they had to modify the engine core a whole lot to make it work as a reliable military turbofan. The WS-20 was then developed from the WS-10 core. It’s at least two design iterations removed from the CFM-56, and furthermore wasn’t designed back up into a high bypass turbofan with commercial requirements as its primary objective. This also means the WS-20 is *not* in fact a mature design, even if it’s a design that’s more or less finishing development.
Furthermore, the logic that C919 operators would rather buy LEAP engines over the CJ-1000 also applies to the WS-20! If the WS-20 is even worse than the CJ-1000 for commercial use why would they go with the WS-20 over the LEAP? Heck, the WS-20 probably won’t even be as fuel efficient or maintainable as the CJ-1000, which would probably make its lifetime cost greater and/or its lifetime value less. There’s literally no upside to adopting the WS-20.
I have a question for those who might know the answer. Assuming both CJ-1000 and WS-20 are ready, is there any reason to choose the WS-20? Does WS-20 have some characteristic that is superior to CJ-1000?