Trade War with China

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
We Win Trade War, The Communist State Falls Apart
The U.S. hates China's market distortions, but it turns out they're critical to keeping Xi's government in control.
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President Trump and Chinese President Xi Jinping in November 2017. (White House/public domain)
On April 26, Chinese President Xi Jinping
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that China will “eliminate improper rules, subsidies, and practices that impede fair competition and distort the market.” If this is true, a win-win deal between the United State and China should arrive shortly, and President Donald Trump will have saved America from what Vice President Mike Pence
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China’s “predatory capitalism.”

But in all likelihood, none of this will happen. That’s because the trade war is, to a large extent, a conflict over the Chinese Communist Party’s most important means of keeping itself in power: subsidies and the state sector. These practices are inflicting great harm on China’s trading partners, and the United States, Europe, Japan, and South Korea are growing less tolerant of them. If the United States is determined to halt the economic damage of China’s trade practices, it has two choices: either attempt to get the Chinese government to give up the tools it needs to hold power—an unrealistic and possibly dangerous goal—or greatly reduce economic ties with China, which would also bring great pain and risk.

China’s subsidies and state sector are as much about politics as they are about economics. In a panel hosted by the Asia Society in 2018, Chinese politics expert Minxin Pei said, “China has such a large state sector, not for any economic reasons. It’s a purely political tool for the Chinese Communist Party to control the economy and keep itself together.”

Xi Jinping’s government almost certainly uses the state sector to distribute income to politically significant individuals and groups, which helps prevent challenges to his power. The presence of many thousands of
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in China is a case in point. And if anything, the Chinese state sector and its subsidies are only set to increase in political consequence. Over the last few years, Xi has rewired China’s political system, severely
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the intra-party democracy that Deng Xiaoping established to prevent a repeat of the horrors of Mao Zedong. The destruction exacted on the Chinese political system, and the accumulation of personal power, make these tools more vital for the Chinese government to hold onto power because they increase the likelihood that
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will come from Chinese elites.

From the American perspective, the costs of living with these trade practices are far too high to justify perpetuating an unreformed trade relationship with China. Hence the bipartisan consensus against China’s trade practices. For example, China’s subsidization of its metals industry has
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steel and aluminum industries globally, causing great pain for industrial regions all over the world. Steve Bannon
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that the impact of China’s trade practices on the American Rust Belt contributed to the opioid crisis and led to Trump’s election. For many years, it was politically viable for American leaders to ignore China’s trade practices. The election of Trump abruptly ended all that.

What many seem to underappreciate is that significantly changing China’s trade practices would mean forcing the Chinese Communist Party to upend a core piece of what is holding its fragile political system together. A meaningful U.S. victory in the trade war would mean getting China to eliminate its subsidies and overhaul its state sector, which could also mean the downfall of the Chinese Communist Party. China’s leaders are well aware of this risk. They are unlikely to give the United States, the EU, Japan, and South Korea what they are looking for.

Of course, some of the Americans who are most interested in aggressively reforming the trade relationship with China are also those most interested in seeing the Chinese regime collapse. But that may not be such a wise outcome, given that it could cause China to descend into horrific violence and potentially lead to a major war.

So if the United States is determined to no longer bear the painful consequences of China’s trade practices, it can either get Beijing to significantly reform its economy—extremely unlikely given the nature of Chinese politics today—or it can decide to curtail the trade relationship. For now, America is trying the first option, but it does not take a genius to see why it is likely to fail. Some think the second option is our only bet.

Ultimately, this conundrum suggests that the Chinese and American systems are wholly incompatible as trade partners, unless the United States becomes willing and able to find some domestic way of accommodating the distortions of Chinese practices. But sooner or later, American policymakers will have to face this reality and the uncomfortable implications of it.

At the moment, it appears likely that Trump will accept an underwhelming deal with China that fails to seriously address the latter’s subsidies and state sector. As a consequence, the United States will likely continue to hemorrhage jobs to China. This will cause the political viability of trade with China to continue to decrease, and we’ll be staring at the same problem all over again.
What is this? The title and conclusion don't match; they're opposites.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Sometimes you do have to admire the kind of mental gymnastics these ideological crusaders have to perform to keep all their propaganda in line. So according to western dogma:

- free market capitalism is as perfect as a solution as us mortals could possible achieve
- planned economy is supremely inefficient and ultimately doomed to failure

But also:
- Chinese state planning is ‘cheating’ and breaking the system and harming trade partners because good old god fearing free enterprise cannot compete with such state meddling, so China must stop. :rolleyes:
 

SpicySichuan

Senior Member
Registered Member
@Josh Luo

When did such low effort propaganda content get tolerated here?

Might as well immediately post from The_Donald, Breibart and any other soft-white nationalist rag. It’s about as delusional.

Strange that they somehow forgot to lie for the last paragraph...?
Well, I want to hear your perspectives on the relationship between SOEs (I mean state-subsidies here) and CCP political control. Therefore, would rolling back SOE subsidies, along with subsidies directed toward MIC 2025 programs, while giving the PRC's private sector (including allowing more millionaires and billionaires to move more of their assets abroad) more freedom seriously weaken the CCP's ability to mobilize support and resources, especially in times of crises? My question is over whether more control or less control over the economy would allow the CCP to maintain its legitimacy and support. Also, based on what I have learned, Beijing's current approach to MIC 2025 is more like import-substitution industrialization. Would private enterprises without state subsidies still be able to compete effectively with Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Intel, etc.?
 

SpicySichuan

Senior Member
Registered Member
- planned economy is supremely inefficient and ultimately doomed to failure
I understand and appreciate your criticism, but could tell me how do you motivate and incentivize individuals to innovate and perform the best without fierce market competition, while being provided with subsidies (some kind of free lunch)? How do you motivate people to strive for the best in a non-market, semi state-controlled setting?
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
The problem with your argument is there is no other source of import . It takes a lot of time to change the supplier Majority of US importer still import from China . due to scale,efficiency, logistic, harbor, custom etc

In the short term, yes.

In the short term, the American consumer will be destroyed by higher prices. Most Americans have less than $1000 in the bank.

However, given enough incentive and time it will happen.

Very unlikely. Can the USA afford to build up a country or (group of countries) to China's level in education and in infrastructure? (Even the poor China of two decades ago.) As I said, very unlikely -- the U.S. can't even fix its own bridges.

Or perhaps you think robots will save the day. But even if they could, they probably wouldn't for decades. In the mean time, prices will be much higher in the U.S. and most Americans will suffer.

(Incidentally, robots will help China too. There is no need to do slave labor if a robot can do it.)
 
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supercat

Colonel
Well, I want to hear your perspectives on the relationship between SOEs (I mean state-subsidies here) and CCP political control. Therefore, would rolling back SOE subsidies, along with subsidies directed toward MIC 2025 programs, while giving the PRC's private sector (including allowing more millionaires and billionaires to move more of their assets abroad) more freedom seriously weaken the CCP's ability to mobilize support and resources, especially in times of crises? My question is over whether more control or less control over the economy would allow the CCP to maintain its legitimacy and support. Also, based on what I have learned, Beijing's current approach to MIC 2025 is more like import-substitution industrialization. Would private enterprises without state subsidies still be able to compete effectively with Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Intel, etc.?

Every industrialized nations industrialized by protecting its own industries from foreign competition, without exception. So China has to do the same, including subsiding its key industries, encouraging domestic and limited international competitions, and more stringent capital control if necessary.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
I understand and appreciate your criticism, but could tell me how do you motivate and incentivize individuals to innovate and perform the best without fierce market competition, while being provided with subsidies (some kind of free lunch)? How do you motivate people to strive for the best in a non-market, semi state-controlled setting?

Think of the CCP like a megacorp that has a military and owns all the land and finances smaller divisions. Because that's essentially what it is.
 

supercat

Colonel
We Win Trade War, The Communist State Falls Apart
...

How is U.S. going to win a trade war against China? By increasing tariff to 25% on all Chinese imports? In any case, American importers pay the tariff, not Chinese exporters. So U.S. importers and consumers pay the tariff eventually. Only Trump and Navarro believe the U.S. can win a trade war by increasing tariff. What I really worry about, though, is that Chinese elites are actually in cahoots with American and global elites covertly, and they will make some secret deals that undermine China's interest, while allowing themselves making enormous fortunes on the American and Chinese markets.
 
We Win Trade War, The Communist State Falls Apart
The U.S. hates China's market distortions, but it turns out they're critical to keeping Xi's government in control.
By
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The thing is the US and world market distortions under "US rules" is what keeps US big money special interests at the top of their domestic totem pole, so it's very much a mirror image situation. Just as some posters have said China can sacrifice overall economic progress to reinforce their internal hierarchy and advance relative national strength, the US is perfectly capable of doing the same and I would say have been instigating exactly such a strategy since the mid-2000's financial crisis.
 
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