Artillery regiment questions

[xyin]

Hello everyone,I'm new here.I have 2 questions about PLA's towed Artillery regiments

questions are from this link:

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1.
Is every PLA's infantry Division equipped with one Cannon(Type 59-I) Battalion in Artillery Regiment ? That's much different than the russian Division.

2.
No 122mm-Level Artillery battalion in Infantry regiment ? Even the Artillery Regiment of Inf.Div?(Except the armour units and some mechanised untis with Type-89 SPG)

cheers!
yin

 

[Gollevainen]

Nice to see that someone else is also interested of chinese artillery :china:

Before I try to awnser to your questions I think few clarifications should be made. First of all the ammount of information (in english) about chinese artillery is rather minimal, apart of this forums mainsite there really isen't much to go with. Our "boss" mr. Dongfeng is currently reconstructing the orbat section so lets hope he will add more detailed material of PLA structure. Aside the artillery units, at least I'm interested to learn more about the general regiment/battalion structures of PLA.

But lets try to dig something of those questions...

1.
Is every PLA's infantry Division equipped with one Cannon(Type 59-I) Battalion in Artillery Regiment ? That's much different than the russian Division.

It's very hard to ask if all are equipted with the Type 59I. the question should be is this the common practise? Well it seems odd, at least when comparing it to the soviet practise (where the art reg of mot inf div usually had 2S3 or D20). The cannons (M46 and 2A36s) where usually assigned to artillery divisions.
Interesting note can be found in the mainsite section of the type 59I: The gun is found in gun battalions of artillery divisions/brigades organic at group army level. These battalions may be assigned to manoeuvre divisions as part of a divisional artillery group.
Could it be that this has somehow confused the opservators and thus it have made them belive that a PLA infantry division carries one cannon battalion? Into any extent the 130 mm cannon in a infantry division doesen't make sense. For logistigally and operationally it's not wise to field two different calibers and type of weapons (gun and a howitser) in same regiment, at least not as a normal configuration intended to be standart in most of the divisions. So I cannot be sure but I think there is a mistake in that old orbat page. If it is still mentioned in the new pages (when they arrive) I will ask Dongfeng himself about the matter...

2. No 122mm-Level Artillery battalion in Infantry regiment ? Even the Artillery Regiment of Inf.Div?(Except the armour units and some mechanised untis with Type-89 SPG)

Well apparently at least not the D30 type (tpye86 or W86) which is only fielded in special corps like marines and airbrone units. This is somewhat funny as the D30 is generally the main gun in soviet style armies (I've used it myself too) and is now considered as obsolent. Still in chinese service it's just about to enter service. But there is a 122mm howitsers in chinese infantry regiments, the type 54 (M30) and it's modernised version Type 83. It tells the sad story of PLA still having huge issue wityh it's modernisation plans and points out that it's not any means ready, but in fact just starting.

 

[duskylim]

Dear Sir:

Its rather difficult to be precise at the moment as the PLA is in the processo of re-organizing its existing units into smaller, more mobile ones with greater firepower and better technology.

Divisions are being turned into brigades, and the PLA regiment as we know it may even dissappear! There is constant reassurance from the top brass however that the reorganization will not result in a loss of unit fire power, but in a streamlining of the unit's bureaucracy.

All we can do is wait and see.

As to the previous organization. IIRC, a PLA infantry division has an artillery regiment as part of its organic structure. The regiment has a battalion of 18 x 122 mm howitzers (or gun-howitzers) - typically their version of the famous Soviet D-30 (divided into 3 - 6 gun batterys), and a second battalion of 18 x 152 mm gun-howitzers.

In addition, the division has a rocket mortar battalion of 18 x 122 mm truck-mounted rocket launchers (with 40 tubes per truck) - Chinese versions of the Soviet BM-21. The difference being the standard Soviet rocket has a range of only about 20 km while the latest Chinese rockets range up to 40 km!

IIRC, each individual infantry regiment has assigned to it 6 x 122 mm howitzers in a cannon company (remember US WWII infantry divisions - its rather similar) and 9 x 120 mm heavy mortars.

It also has 9 (?) x 100 mm anti-tank guns (or anti-tank missiles?) and a similar number of 100 mm anti-aircraft guns - of course my memory is quite fallible and I could be wrong - very wrong.

The regiment should also have rocket mortar battery of 9 x 130 mm truck-mounted rocket launchers (with 24 tubes per truck). All in all, not bad firepower - as long as you can deploy and get to fire your guns!

Now as to the 130 mm Type 59's well, they should go with the Independant Artillery Divisions assigned to the Group Armies in the counter-battery role. Their deployment is up to the brass. I don't think they are organic to the standard PLA Infantry division.

Best Regards,

Dusky Lim

 

[Husar]

Well apparently at least not the D30 type (tpye86 or W86) which is only fielded in special corps like marines and airbrone units. This is somewhat funny as the D30 is generally the main gun in soviet style armies (I've used it myself too) and is now considered as obsolent.

Still in chinese service it's just about to enter service. But there is a 122mm howitsers in chinese infantry regiments, the type 54 (M30) and it's modernised version Type 83. It tells the sad story of PLA still having huge issue wityh it's modernisation plans and points out that it's not any means ready, but in fact just starting.

This is interesting. They probably didn't see any need for it (D-30) before.

I'm not an artilleryman, but I think the D-30 is still a decent weapon.

 

[Gollevainen]

This is interesting. They probably didn't see any need for it (D-30) before.

Well its not about the "need" but the fact that chinese didn't have the change to obtain this gun untill it was practically obsolent. Pretty much same as with all the other chinese weapon systems.

I'm not an artilleryman, but I think the D-30 is still a decent weapon.

Well it fires piggies to the sky but it's not anyway comparable to modern APU fitted guns or howitsers. Also it's unique trileg configuration is IMO not so practical, it causes considerably more time to be waste on the deployment.

 

[Husar]

Well its not about the "need" but the fact that chinese didn't have the change to obtain this gun untill it was practically obsolent. Pretty much same as with all the other chinese weapon systems.

Why not until now?
It's not exactly a "high-tech" piece of equipment

Well it fires piggies to the sky but it's not anyway comparable to modern APU fitted guns or howitsers. Also it's unique trileg configuration is IMO not so practical, it causes considerably more time to be waste on the deployment.

AFAIK, the 3-leg configuration was intended for quick traverse in the direct fire role....the D-30 had a secondary AT role. I've seen it in action..... not against tanks, but bunkers and buildings


Speaking of "Flying Pigs"

 

[Gollevainen]

Why not until now?
It's not exactly a "high-tech" piece of equipment

Well china was not able to buy soviet equipment after 1962 (and pretty much all other countries as well weren't willing to sell weapons to china) break-up. So they have to go on what ever they got. This didn't plague just artillery, but pretty much all military branches. Thus there is lots of ageing equipment in use still today, like J-6s (MiG-19) and Luda class DDGs.

AFAIK, the 3-leg configuration was intended for quick traverse in the direct fire role....the D-30 had a secondary AT role.

Well it's basicly the only benefit of that configuration, tough it's effeciency is bit douptfull as altough the gun could be used as a seccondary anti-tank gun, normal fire support branch guns are seldomly used in that role. It would require specialized ammunitions and direct firing sights if you wish to hit anything with the howitser.

I've seen it in action..... not against tanks, but bunkers and buildings

When using full charges (and direct firing sights) we actually did hit a tank size targets, but wheter it would actually do some harm to tanks is completely
different matter.

Speaking of "Flying Pigs"

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well that sure puts the "pigs on the wing" to new meaning...did I see rigth and they gave zip of vodka to the poor biglet???
I dont know about other armies but in finland, the artillery shells are called as 'pigs' by us artillery mens...

 

[kunmingren]

hey golle, what exactly is role or artellery or rockets are in modern warfare. for me at least, everything i hear on TV about warfare are about airplanes or cruise missile. what kinda task are artellery men expected to do in Modern armies?

 

[Husar]

Well china was not able to buy soviet equipment after 1962 (and pretty much all other countries as well weren't willing to sell weapons to china) break-up. So they have to go on what ever they got. This didn't plague just artillery, but pretty much all military branches. Thus there is lots of ageing equipment in use still today, like J-6s (MiG-19) and Luda class DDGs.

I know about the 1962 break....they even had a small border war. I'm unclear about the Chinese not getting it in the 1990's.....10-15 years ago at least IF we assume the D-30 is what they wanted

Well it's basicly the only benefit of that configuration, tough it's effeciency is bit douptfull as altough the gun could be used as a seccondary anti-tank gun, normal fire support branch guns are seldomly used in that role. It would require specialized ammunitions and direct firing sights if you wish to hit anything with the howitser.

The AT role was only to be used as a "last ditch" defence, if the battery came under tank attack itself (I'm sure you know more about this than me).

I'm pretty sure there was a HEAT round for the D-30

well that sure puts the "pigs on the wing" to new meaning...did I see rigth and they gave zip of vodka to the poor biglet???

It looks more like a bottle of wine.....

hey golle, what exactly is role or artellery or rockets are in modern warfare. for me at least, everything i hear on TV about warfare are about airplanes or cruise missile. what kinda task are artellery men expected to do in Modern armies?

Not addressed to me, but I'll give it a go....

Artillery is still one of the 3 main elements of a land army, which hasn't changed in essence since at least Napoleons time

1. Infantry
2. Armour (Cavalry)
3. Artillery

I'm assuming you know what the artillery does....

Not every army has the capability or can afford to launch hundreds of cruise misiles or hundreds of air sorties

 

[Gollevainen]

hey golle, what exactly is role or artellery or rockets are in modern warfare. for me at least, everything i hear on TV about warfare are about airplanes or cruise missile. what kinda task are artellery men expected to do in Modern armies?

you watch too much TV then

A artillery is the basic fire support branch of the manouvring infantry or armour. It gives the indirect fire support basicly for battalion level and upwards, but in hars encounterments, a single section leader can have consentrations atop his enemies, if he has a proper fire observator aboard.
Missiles and aircrafts cannot reach similar allert levels as they need to first take off and then fly to the combat zone and to deliver similar level of ordanance as artillery does, it would require a lot of planes...and aviation fuel, smart ammunitions and airframelife cost awfully lot more than artillery....

In modern combat, the situations are mostly counter-insurgency operations or similar police work in dense urban enverioment, in to use indirect fire, would couse unnesery civilian casualties (thougth this seems not to bother Israelians ) as artillery cannot reach centimeter level accuracy. But in real engagements between two combat forces, artillery is as logical element as small arms fire. Us artillery mens were told that infantry manouvres and moves, artillery destroys.

I know about the 1962 break....they even had a small border war. I'm unclear about the Chinese not getting it in the 1990's.....10-15 years ago at least IF we assume the D-30 is what they wanted

well they are getting it only now, its beeing introduced to the most modern branches like marines and airborne troops.

The AT role was only to be used as a "last ditch" defence, if the battery came under tank attack itself (I'm sure you know more about this than me).

I'm pretty sure there was a HEAT round for the D-30

Yeas, we had even a fin stabilised head rounds, but we didn't practice with them...and Im not sure, but the sigth that we used in indirect fire was pretty much same as in all soviet anti-tank guns...