Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
No you haven't. You have given an attempted response but not an answer addressing specifically the issue. You claim that Dassault is reneging on its commitment of guaranteeing HAL's liabilities as specified in the RFP. To-date, you have not provided a shred of evidence that your claim has any foundation to it.

Then can you explain why the deal hasn't been signed yet?

We don't have to know the specifics. We just have to know HAL's role and its relationship to the supplier when such a supplier is selected. That relationship within the framework then defines the obligations and whether Dassault is responsible for HAL's obligations. Your only comment is that HAL is the lead integrator. That itself doesn't define the relationship between Dassault and HAL. Specific obligations has to be defined and agreed within that working relationship. Inferring that HAL as the lead integrator means Dassault is responsible for HAL's performance liabilities is stretching reasoning beyond breaking point.

You can't simply make claims without being called out.

You don't know how the system works, so you wouldn't know how the liabilities work.

What if I tell you that at least 90% of the work will be done by Dassault on the first 18 airframes out of the 108 and they don't want to be liable for it. Out of the 30 months that they take to manufacture a Rafale, HAL's part is only worth 2 months. And Dassault doesn't want to be liable for it. Is that fair?

The term lead integrator is enough of a clue on how things work, you have to study the Typhoon program if you want a western equivalent of this system. Even the F-35 provides the clues necessary, though the information on it is lesser.
 
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aksha

Captain
U.S. offers to boost India’s firepower

the United States has offered to equip India's strike force against China with a key artillery weapon arranged to be made in India. The offer, which comes ahead of US President Barack Obama's visit to New Delhi later this month, is laden with powerful symbolism of the US joining hands with India against commonly perceived military threats.

The proposal involves the shifting of the M777 artillery gun assembly line from the US to India. The M777 is a 155mm titanium-based Ultra-Light Howitzer (ULH), which enables artillery to be airlifted by helicopter to distant mountainous military posts.

The ULH will be the principal weapon for India's new Mountain Strike Corps, which is being raised to deter China. Ultra-light artillery will give teeth to this strike formation and form the backbone of its firepower. The light weight of this gun makes its airlift and deployment in the mountains possible. There are very few options for the procurement of this gun.

"We've offered to bring the gun's assembly, integration and testing to India," John Kelly, vice president, British Aerospace (BAE), told The Sunday Guardian. BAE owns the American entity producing this weapon, which is combat proven in Afghanistan. It has also been extensively tested in India.

This offer is a government-to-government deal underwritten by the Obama administration under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route. During his visit, in which he will also be the chief guest at the Republic Day Parade, President Obama is expected to make a pitch for stepping up India-US defence trade. The US has for long been pushing for greater intimacy in defence ties with India.

India needs an estimated 450 ultra-light artillery guns for preparedness for mountain warfare. The initial requirement is for 145 guns at a cost of about $750 million. The need is vital because of India's vast unsettled mountainous boundaries, which create a greater probability of future wars being fought in Himalayan battlefields than anywhere else.

Indeed, the offer to indigenise the gun is an effort to revive an earlier, stalled bid to sell this howitzer to India. The earlier proposal was for a direct import of the weapon from the US. The new offer is bolder, and intended to be more compelling with a Make in India flavour. Sources in the Ministry of Defence said India is likely to enter into negotiations formally with a Letter of Request to the US soon.

"We have identified over 40 Indian partners to substantially indigenise the components. At the heart of the proposal is to shift the assembly line (from the Hattiesburg, Mississippi facility in the US) to India, and make the gun here under transfer of technology," says Kelly.

The earlier campaign for the sale of this gun hit an impasse last year over offsets (counter-trade obligations on the US supplier) and price issues. In July 2014, the then Defence Minister Arun Jaitley told Parliament, "The case for the procurement of Ultra-Light Howitzer guns through the US government has not progressed due to cost issues and because the vendor has not been able to come up with a proposal fully compliant to the offset requirements."

Under the FMS route, the weapon is purchased from the US Department of Defense, which in turn contracts it from the vendor (manufacturer). But the offsets are to be delivered by the vendor, and not the US government. The previous bid involved offsets worth $209 million, which means that equipment worth this amount would be sourced from Indian manufacturers as part of the contract.

The Ministry of Defence dismissed the earlier proposal as non-compliant because of offsets anomalies. Indian Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) requires the contracted prime vendor specifically to deliver the offsets (in this case 30% of the value of the contract). The failed proposal involved the larger BAE group (of which the prime vendor is a part) delivering the offsets.

BAE believes the problem has now been sorted out, and anomalies have been "clarified". "With regards to the possible Foreign Military Sale of the M777 Ultra-Lightweight Howitzers between the United States and India, the United States government will contract with BAE Systems Global Combat Systems Limited and with other wholly owned subsidiaries of BAE Systems for the purposes of supporting out offset obligations," BAE responded to a query by The Sunday Guardian.

This suggests that the new arrangement has the blessings of the US government, and that the singular entity clearly identified for delivering the offsets is BAE Systems Global Combat System. Observers say this makes the new offer compliant to Indian requirements.

Trade analysts believe that the other problem over "cost issues" is more of a misunderstanding. The first offer, which expired in October 2013, came with a price tag of $697 million. A subsequent approval by the US Congress put a price ceiling of $885 million for the sale of 145 guns to India. "This was wrongly seen as the new price. The Congressional approval had left generous headroom by stipulating a ceiling of $885 million. We'll keep the actual price within 6-8% of the earlier figure," says Kelly, suggesting a new price close to $750 million.

After decades of arms denial to India, the US has emerged as a key military supplier to India over the last decade. The embargo was lifted with the sale of ANTPQ-37 artillery locating radars, which was the first military equipment supplied by the US to India after 1964.

Subsequently, there have been several multi-billion dollar deals involving big ticket items like the supply of C-17 strategic airlifters, C-130J special missions' aircraft, P8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft and Harpoon anti-ship missiles aggregating about $10 billion. In the works are deals for Apache attack helicopters, Chinook heavy-lift helicopters (capable of carrying the M777 gun) and Sikorsky naval helicopters, with values aggregating another $4 billion. The US has made 17 new proposals under the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative. Observers now regard military ties, in particular defence trade, as a key driver of the India-US relationship.
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Brumby

Major
Then can you explain why the deal hasn't been signed yet?

This was the link you originally provided to me.
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In that report, it stated " MoD sources say 90% of the draft MMRCA contract is ready, with ToT, offsets and other issues all settled, and even the inter-governmental agreement with France has been finalized. But the sticking point is Dassault's reluctance to accept responsibility for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production are concerned."

This is different from Dassault reneging on original RFP terms as you claimed and which I have been asking for some form of evidence to support that claim. If there is no evidence to support the claim then it is an unsubstantiated claim. Why is it so difficult to say that even after going through so many iterations?

You don't know how the system works, so you wouldn't know how the liabilities work.

Precisely why I have been asking for the details and which you have been unable to provide but yet is adamant that Dassault is responsible for HAL's liabilities as per RFP. That itself is a contradictory statement.

What if I tell you that at least 90% of the work will be done by Dassault on the first 18 airframes out of the 108 and they don't want to be liable for it. Out of the 30 months that they take to manufacture a Rafale, HAL's part is only worth 2 months. And Dassault doesn't want to be liable for it. Is that fair?

Firstly, I prefer not to deal with hypotheticals because of questionable relevance. More importantly what is fair is up to the different parties to work through. If the terms are deemed unreasonable to any one party, then likelihood is there would be no deal.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
From CDF weasel 1962, interesting :

1 Dec 2014 audit report on Su-30MKI production

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Useful info:
81 delivery by FY 2012-2013 under 140 production contract. Contract II for 40 should be fulfilled? Contract III for 42 should have 6 delivered. So total by 2012-2013 should be 50+81+40+6= 177.

9.1.2.1 read with 9.1.4.4 shows that 140 Su-30MKI requires 1,200 engines for whole life (280 primary + 920 reserve) which is ~8.57 engines per a/c. Based on this, as an assumption for single AL-31 engined fighters like J-10, 4.3 engines per aircraft could be required.

Based on delivery schedules, ~10-12 Su-30mki can be delivered per year under contract I (140) which will only end 2019. Add 8-10 for Contract II and III per year suggest a max rate of maybe 20 per year. Contract III delivery will end 2016. If Rafale MMRCA doesn't take off and production is assumed by HAL's su-30MKI, HAL can possibly start delivery of 10 more a year from 2018 and 20 from 2020 i.e. 120 Su-30MKI can be added by FY 2023-2024. Clearly within scope and close to the delivery schedule for rafale.

As important is the cost. Per table 65, avg unit cost per Su-30mki was 294 crore and 385 crore or ~US$62m (using 62 rupee = $1) for 2012 contract. 120 will cost US$7.44b or ~46,200 crore. A cost advantage.


The report also reveals that not all a/c are standard mkis.
8 x Su-30K (Nov 1996 contract)
32 x Su-30MK (Nov 1996 contract)
10 x Su-30MK (Dec 1998 contract)
34 x Su-30MKI Blk 1 (Mar 2006 contract)
30 x Su-30MKI Blk 2 (Mar 2006 contract)
32 x Su-30MKI Blk 3 (Mar 2006 contract)
40 x Su-30MKI Blk 2 or 3 (Mar 2007 contract)
44 x Su-30MKI Blk 4 (Mar 2006 contract)
42 x Su-30MKI Blk 4 (Dec 2012 contract)
Total: 8 K, 42 MK, 34 Blk 1, 102 Blk 2/3, 86 Blk 4.
The report appears to be the first official reference to blocks (not just phases). The later sqns to be inducted can be assumed to have later blocks.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
This was the link you originally provided to me.
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In that report, it stated " MoD sources say 90% of the draft MMRCA contract is ready, with ToT, offsets and other issues all settled, and even the inter-governmental agreement with France has been finalized. But the sticking point is Dassault's reluctance to accept responsibility for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production are concerned."

This is different from Dassault reneging on original RFP terms as you claimed and which I have been asking for some form of evidence to support that claim. If there is no evidence to support the claim then it is an unsubstantiated claim. Why is it so difficult to say that even after going through so many iterations?

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"The RFP (request for proposal) terms have to be met... they cannot be diluted," defence minister
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told a television channel.

Parrikar was talking about the liabilities mentioned in the DPP. The DPP is mentioned in the RFP. You cannot purchase weapons outside the DPP. Upon entering any tender in India, you HAVE to accept the terms of the DPP, or you can go home. Dassault has accepted all the terms of the DPP, and now want to go against it.

Why would the MoD say RFP terms are not being met then?

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India is insisting that France's Dassault Aviation take full responsibility for the production of the aircraft at a state-run facility in Bangalore under the 2012 bid offer, Indian defence ministry officials said.

France has said it will help Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd stick to delivery schedules, but that it cannot give guarantees for production of the aircraft made at a facility over which it has no administrative or expert control.

Precisely why I have been asking for the details and which you have been unable to provide but yet is adamant that Dassault is responsible for HAL's liabilities as per RFP. That itself is a contradictory statement.

I think you have misunderstood the DPP, so I would recommend reading aksha's post again.

Firstly, I prefer not to deal with hypotheticals because of questionable relevance. More importantly what is fair is up to the different parties to work through. If the terms are deemed unreasonable to any one party, then likelihood is there would be no deal.

What do you mean hypotheticals? That's how the deal is progressing. That's how the MKI deal has progressed. Rafale will also follow the SKD, CKD, full production process like the MKI.

If Dassault doesn't accept the RFP terms, which BAE accepted and was at the receiving end of it, then there will be no deal. That much is obvious.
 

Brumby

Major
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Parrikar was talking about the liabilities mentioned in the DPP. The DPP is mentioned in the RFP. You cannot purchase weapons outside the DPP. Upon entering any tender in India, you HAVE to accept the terms of the DPP, or you can go home. Dassault has accepted all the terms of the DPP, and now want to go against it.

Why would the MoD say RFP terms are not being met then?

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I think you have misunderstood the DPP, so I would recommend reading aksha's post again.



What do you mean hypotheticals? That's how the deal is progressing. That's how the MKI deal has progressed. Rafale will also follow the SKD, CKD, full production process like the MKI.

If Dassault doesn't accept the RFP terms, which BAE accepted and was at the receiving end of it, then there will be no deal. That much is obvious.

I think we are going around in circles on this. You are making very specific claims based on what are supposedly in the RFP or DPP. However when asked, you are unable to provide the details in the RFP/DPP but nevertheless the whole basis of your claims are based on the details. You can't have it both ways.
 

aksha

Captain

LCA Tejas to be Star Attraction at Aero India 2015

India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas which was handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) yesterday is expected to be the star attraction at the Aero India 2015 event in Bangalore. The aircraft which had enthralled crowds at Aero India 2013 with its breath-taking aerobatics may put up an even more impressive show, now that it has completed its flight test program or Initial Operational Clearance –II which signifies that it is airworthy in different flying conditions. At least three versions of the LCA Tejas, the IAF version, the Naval version and the trainer version will either fly at the show or will be displayed on the ground, informed sources told defenseworld.net. The LCA has completed over 3000 flying hours without any hitch which makes it one of the most elaborate test programs of any aircraft manufacturer in the world. The Tejas Series Production-1 (LCA-SP1) was handed over by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to IAF chief Air Marshal Arup Raha, yesterday marking its entry into the IAF service. A news agency report said quoting HAL sources that the production of LCA Tejas will be 20 aircraft by 2017-2018, to make the first squadron of the aircraft. HAL's LCA Project Group has been upgraded to a full- fledged division to look after production in a systematic way with more investments.
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aksha

Captain
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makes it clear that DRDO has a shortage of 2776 scientists and tht is now being addressed
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mstXjRY.png

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On shortage of funds in DRDO from
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and last year's budget hike bcoz of it.
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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The Indian Air Force (IAF) took possession of the first indigenously-built Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) on Saturday 17 January. Defence minister Manohar Parrikar handed the aircraft over from state-owned developer and manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to the IAF. Air force pilots will now try and get the fighter airplane ready for Final Operational Clearance (FOC) towards the end of 2015.
It’s the series production SP1 aircraft that is now owned by the air force, two months after its
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. The ceremony took place in the presence of Air Chief Marshal Anup Raha at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bengaluru.
It is believed that over the next three years, 20 Tejas LCAs will be produced to allow the first squadron to be equipped. So far,
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have been built, aming which two double seat trainers. The Tejas is an indigenous to replace dozens and dozens of Indian Air Force MiG-21s, but the project faced delay after delay. The go-ahead for the project was given no less than 32 years ago. The latest milestone was the
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for the carrier version of the Tejas.
Also, if FOC is achieved, the Indian Air Forces still has a lot of desires left, first among which is more a powerful engine than the current GE F404-IN20 engine. A preliminary design review – including the GE F414 engine – has been made for Tejas LCA Mark-II, with a first flight expected no sooner than 2017.

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