Crisis in the Ukraine

[MwRYum]

[
"Victory Parade" in DPR

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And the militia would say they neither signed nor rectified the convention, so not bind by the terms.

More so, DPR isn't a recognized "nation state"...

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Recognition as a "nation state" is in fact what they wish but the critical factors are in the next article of the treaty

Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:

1. Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.

2. The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.

C. This Article shall in no way affect the status of medical personnel and chaplains as provided for in Article 33 of the present Convention.

So the question is does the the Donetsk Peoples Republic match the list? Yes they do. Where AQ and the Taliban in Afghanistan do not abide the conventions, the DPR actually matches all the requirements for there soldiers to be considered POWs if captured. If they match as so does the Ukrainian government Forces then by all rights the conventions are valid. Particularly if the DPK and Nevurussia wish any recognition. By violating the conventions they first place reduce the chances of any greater recognition, second risk there POWs being placed in the same if not worse and third risk wider war crime indictments. The conventions were written after incidents of captured troops being paraded finding them selves attacked by lynch mobs

 

[MwRYum]

Recognition as a "nation state" is in fact what they wish but the critical factors are in the next article of the treaty
So the question is does the the Donetsk Peoples Republic match the list? Yes they do. Where AQ and the Taliban in Afghanistan do not abide the conventions, the DPR actually matches all the requirements for there soldiers to be considered POWs if captured. If they match as so does the Ukrainian government Forces then by all rights the conventions are valid. Particularly if the DPK and Nevurussia wish any recognition. By violating the conventions they first place reduce the chances of any greater recognition, second risk there POWs being placed in the same if not worse and third risk wider war crime indictments. The conventions were written after incidents of captured troops being paraded finding them selves attacked by lynch mobs

But Kiev treats militiamen they captured as criminals (they'd be rightly so to be honest, else they'd be recognizing the DPR by deeds) instead as POWs, right?

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Do we have any real reports on how the rebels are really being treated? I mean if they are being locked up in a Ukrainian government prison then the question comes to does the treatment of the Ukraine prison system match the convention? Given the numbers that must be involved I am betting that the Ukrainian government has to be placing them in some form of internment facility specifically for captured Rebels. So then the question is how are they doing? And what rights do that have? I have not seen any reports on how they are incarcerating rebels. Have you? If so a link please. As is I can only point out that the actions of the DPR do not conform to the Conventions. They are stated as echoing Russian military parades of the post second world war where in captured Germans soldiers were forced to march in such a form. The event was specifically designed to humiliate, and show a rebellion set hard against any reunification.

 

[Broccoli]

Russian "elite" soldiers don't know how to use maps? If someone believes these lies that person must a total moron. I feel kinda bad for Lavrov because he has to tell blatant lies 24/7.

Russia says that a group Russian military personnel who were captured in eastern Ukraine had crossed the border by mistake.

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[MwRYum]

They are stated as echoing Russian military parades of the post second world war where in captured Germans soldiers were forced to march in such a form. The event was specifically designed to humiliate, and show a rebellion set hard against any reunification.

Actually it was more of a "re-enactment" of sort of that famous German POWs march through Moscow following the Operation Bagration, dubbed "Operation: The Great Waltz", right down to the part of street cleaning vehicles following the parade...of course, the scope and scale this time is far smaller. Probably partly due to the militia's part in keenly reminding everyone the Kiev regime is a fascist one (which actually tearing itself apart since it took power, and now the president dissolved the parliament and push the election schedule forward to the upcoming October), a nod to the past is in play I reckon?

 

[Dannhill]

The President dissolved Parliament because some Parliamentarians refused to brand the separatists as "terrorists".
Perhaps he expects the new election to bring in all far rights people and no bleeding hearts pro-Russian people.

Actually it was more of a "re-enactment" of sort of that famous German POWs march through Moscow following the Operation Bagration, dubbed "Operation: The Great Waltz", right down to the part of street cleaning vehicles following the parade...of course, the scope and scale this time is far smaller. Probably partly due to the militia's part in keenly reminding everyone the Kiev regime is a fascist one (which actually tearing itself apart since it took power, and now the president dissolved the parliament and push the election schedule forward to the upcoming October), a nod to the past is in play I reckon?

 

[Dannhill]

How is Kiev going to report this? That they hold 25% of it?

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[Zool]

Recognition as a "nation state" is in fact what they wish but the critical factors are in the next article of the treaty
So the question is does the the Donetsk Peoples Republic match the list? Yes they do. Where AQ and the Taliban in Afghanistan do not abide the conventions, the DPR actually matches all the requirements for there soldiers to be considered POWs if captured. If they match as so does the Ukrainian government Forces then by all rights the conventions are valid. Particularly if the DPK and Nevurussia wish any recognition. By violating the conventions they first place reduce the chances of any greater recognition, second risk there POWs being placed in the same if not worse and third risk wider war crime indictments. The conventions were written after incidents of captured troops being paraded finding them selves attacked by lynch mobs

I get what you are saying here and agree completely on the need to treat captured enemy combatants humanely. Even if direct physical abuse is not applied, humiliation is another method of breaking a human being. We should have some perspective when discussing International War Crime indictments however, with Gitmo still being a reality in the world today, along with Abu Ghraib and Black Sites of the past. No trips to The Hague for any of the policy makers or soldiers/agents in any of those cases -- although 7 enlisted men & women serving in Abu Gharaib did receive varying sentences under UCMJ (max was 6.5 years served) for torture and murder. What we have seen so far from either side in Ukraine regarding treatment of POW's appears mild. Let's hope it stays that way.

And please, anyone reading this, understand it is not an attempt at country bashing to point out other cases of enemy combatant abuse in recent history, but a point of context when talking about potential War Crime charges in Ukraine based on what we have seen so far.

 

[SampanViking]

Interesting news today all round.

The 10 Russian paratroopers seem to be getting a lot of attention, I guess when you do not have much, you need to make a meal out of what you have.

First of all 10 paratroopers on the edge of the new Southern Cauldron are not exactly a armoured column invading Mariupol, so the attempts to link the incident and the earlier allegations are somewhat farcical. There is no solid evidence of course of any Russian forces crossing the border at Novoazovsk, while we have been following the process of the Militia heading south from Donetsk on the two main roads to Novoazovsk for the last few days.

Secondly, pretty clearly not a combat mission either otherwise there would have been a fire fight. There is no denying that the position where the guys were caught was too far West for a border demarcation error, but the team too small to be anything other than an intel recon unit, looking to sort something out in the cauldron area. Maybe even trying to recce a safe route for a new Humanitarian mission into Donetsk itself?

Is it a naughty? yes, is it an invasion or proof of active Russian military involvement? no. It is though the kind of thing that all nations do in hotspots of interest, to ensure that they have the best possible intel for policy and decision making. I think The Ukraine should have their five minutes of glory from the incident and then return them, as it is the case that many more Ukrainian solidiers have passed the border to Russia over the last few months and there has been fire across the border to Russia and that Russia has been shown considerable restraint to date. A foolish move now could cause that to change in the future.

Back to maps and there is a new one out today, which I will post when back at home and on my main PC.

pla101prc says

anyways i used to follow bbc's map just last week, thinking the war is going well for Ukraine. til information starts to come out that made me question the legitimacy of that map. after lookin around i find col cossad's map to be one of those that i can trust. though i think it is a lil too optimistic for the rebels, still way better than bbc's map though.

I am going to try and be a bit charitable on this matter and say given the relatively small area being contested, the ability of motorisation and mechanisation and of course the range of artillery, that there will be a large tidal area in which both sides can move quite freely, but which neither side actually controls.
This is something that the video I posted yesterday brought home, where you had two squads effectively hunting each other on parallel streets in the town. I wonder how much of the war is really being fought this way, with possession being a very temporary situation for either side?

In that case you could have the BBC map showing the "lowest tide" for the militia, with only the true controlled/safe zones being shown but being very misleading about the nature of of Ukrainian control and then the Cassad maps showing the "high tide" position, being the furthest extent to which the militia are able to freely roam. Overlay the two and we may have a more accurate real picture (although I still suspect that the BBC map would remain over generous to Kiev).

Also very little doubt that ground and advantage is passing to the militia and that large parts of the Ukrainian army is in big trouble. I assume that the overriding strategy now of the militia is to push the Ukrainian army as far out of artillery range as possible (or at least minimise the weapons with sufficient range to hit) of the two regional capitals; Donetsk and Luhansk. The tactical envelopments of at least blocking the main roads for resupply of the trapped units seems to suggests this, as well as providing bolt holes for the troops across the unguarded fields, unfettered by heavy weapons and supplies.

PS I am glad its not just me and that others have the same degree of scepticism to the BBC/Official Ukrainian Map and associated claims about Russia, that I have. Enjoy!

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