East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

[Jeff Head]

Well said Jeff!

But unfortunately fairness, reason, and perhaps even basic common sense seems to be rather lacking when it comes to US foreign policy, where the US has not shown anywhere close to the kind of class and maturity a power of its status should display.

The US has always been shamelessly petty and at times vindictive when it comes to applying foreign policy.

Wolf, your very next paragraph contradicts this "always" description.

That is not to say US foreign policy is always self serving or ignoble, quite the contrary. There are innumerable examples where they US has acted selflessly and courageously, and have done a lot of good throughout the world.

See. It's really not "always."

But the goodwill such selfless acts generate is steadily eaten away by the selfish, silly and sometimes downright bizarre antics and tantrums the US is prone to indulge in.

Agreed. The selfless, couragous acts of the past are easy to forget when contrary acts occur thereafter.

And THAT occurrs all too often when petty and self-serving politicans somehow get elected, appointed, or come to power.

And THAT is certainly not something the US alone has a patent on.

I can say that over my 58 years of life, I have seen it from time to time from every single nation that plays any role on the world stage...depending on the leader/administration and their appointees in question.

Anyhow, I believe this particular situation could be easily mitigated by common sense, fair handedness, and a willingness to understand one another's true needs, and give accordingly, while maintaining the right to free and safe passage in international air space.

I hope and pray we will get leadership that does this...but the people in America are the ones who will have to make it happen. I hope we do.

 

[vincent]

Jeff, I think the Chinese government has asked for fairness all along but received the exact opposite. She realized now that US (and the West) will never treat her fairly. That's why she's making all the aggressive moves recently

 

[Jeff Head]

US (and the West) will never treat her fairly. That's why she's making all the aggressive moves recently

Sorry, Vincent, "never" is a word in this context that if far too rigid, and far too ideologically motivated. It can only be used to keep the chance for any agreement from coming about.

The fact is that the US has not always mistreated China. The fact is that the US is not on a course to "never" treat China fairly.

Thank goodness leadership on both sides do not feel this way...even with the current mistakes and misunderstandings.

If anyone in leadership ever REALLY felt that the US would never treat China failry...then a major, horrible war would become inevitable.

I do not believe that to be the case at all.

 

[Blackstone]

So wolfie, ???? the US did not implement the ADIZ. The US has stated that they will NOT honor it, which tells us that there is a very real concern that its implementation IS no doubt escalating tensions in the region. So how is it that this is an example of antics and tantrums???? and why defend BHO and Co, its their DOD and State Department that implemented the "swing to the Pacific", so isn't it only fair to give credit where credit is due??? For what its worth, I have no problems with this policy, as the US has a long standing interest in security in the region. [b/Hence the state depts request that the ADIZ not be "enforced", in an assertive manner, hoping to "de-escalate" tensions in the region[/b].

US saber rattling to China on ADIZ doesn't deescalate ECS tension, quite the opposite. I say that because warnings to China by BHO's administration is seen as supporting Japan in a sovereignty dispute, which falsify US claims of neutrality in such matters.

 

[Blackstone]

Sorry, Vincent, "never" is a word in this context that if far too rigid, and far too ideologically motivated. It can only be used to keep the chance for any agreement from coming about.

The fact is that the US has not always mistreated China. The fact is that the US is not on a course to "never" treat China fairly.

Thank goodness leadership on both sides do not feel this way...even with the current mistakes and misunderstandings.

If anyone in leadership ever REALLY felt that the US would never treat China failry...then a major, horrible war would become inevitable.

I do not believe that to be the case at all.

You made some good points, Jeff, but it's becoming painfully obvious Obama is over his head in great power politics. China and Russia will take him for rides, and Iran probably will get its licks in too. Bad time for weak leadership.

 

[Janiz]

If that is the case, why isn't the US requesting Japan to remove their ADIZ? Why request that of only China if de-escalation was truly the goal?

Why Japan should remove ADIZ? If they would remove it China would remove it's?

Many don't have basic backround regarding the ADI Zones in East China Sea.

1) South Korean and Japanese ADIZ were created by US
2) The only country that expanded it's ADIZ wasn't the evil Japan but South Korea which did it last year.

Today Chinese side said that in November last year Japanese F15's scrambled their aircraft going as close as 10m (sic!) to it. They said they have proofs. But there's nothing for us to wait as there won't be any... As usual I would say.

I agreed there, but unfortunately the Japanese elite rulers sees it differently. They will use any means necessary to maintain that status quo at all cost. For some reason they just can't face the fact that the world is changing and the balance of power is changing as well.

You mean obey the stronger? I think that unlike Phillipines or Vietnam 'elite rulers' of Japan aren't boiled frog in a cup of water like the first ones and they're much more similar to China - a giant salamander in a cup of water. And good for them at not budging a single bit just like their Chinese counterparts.

Personally, I think that moment was when Japan pressed ahead to "nationalize" the islands. That set off a chain of events that led to where things are currently at. The US did not pressure hard enough behind closed doors at that moment to keep status quo. No matter what the Japanese rationale or spin, "nationalizing" pretty much gave no wiggle room for China not unless it essentially capitulates and gives those islands to Japan which ain't happening.

This only changed a single thing that Japanese outsmarted Chinese and bought it from private hands. Just imagine if any of Chinese smart guys had ever such a plan for as Chinese company or industrialists had bought it! What a brillant move that would be - a single blow to obtain it without a single bullet. One can only imagine some angry faces who just realized upon hearing the news and thinking - 'Why we haven't thought about that earlier! That would be dacissive blow!'. Japanese nationalization haven't changed the status quo a single bit unlike you try to portrait it.

Japan has only the US as their strong ally and they're not like South Korea who can play the China card.

I remember last week or so the Korean press wrote about a joke during Chinese side visit to Seoul and a member of it joked 'So how about coming back to tributary system?' which only met preplexed faces on Korean side.

Few days ago South Korea decided to disband their Coast Guard. You know what was behind that decission? Hundreds of Chinese fishing boats which literally moored on Korean coasts every night and in the broad daylight as the CG was unable to repell them being busy with the sinking of Sewol...

US saber rattling to China on ADIZ doesn't deescalate ECS tension, quite the opposite. I say that because warnings to China by BHO's administration is seen as supporting Japan in a sovereignty dispute, which falsify US claims of neutrality in such matters.

I think that aiming FC radars at Japanese DD and heli last year had much more impact.

 

[Jeff Head]

They said they have proofs. But there's nothing for us to wait as there won't be any... As usual I would say.

Japanese outsmarted Chinese and bought it from private hands.

Japanese nationalization haven't changed the status quo a single bit unlike you try to portrait it.

Janiz, make your points, but do not use belittling or inflamatory language or phrases when you do.

You are new to SD, and we welcome you here. Please be sure to read and follow the forum Rules of Behavior.

Do not respond to this modertion.

 

[Air Force Brat]

US saber rattling to China on ADIZ doesn't deescalate ECS tension, quite the opposite. I say that because warnings to China by BHO's administration is seen as supporting Japan in a sovereignty dispute, which falsify US claims of neutrality in such matters.

While the US intends to be fair and even handed with all the parties involved, I don't see how you can interpret our defense agreements with many of the ASEAN nations, to declare our neutrality. Is US policy inept, you bet, to much talking and to little conviction to do the right thing, while we all realize that these little statements, "imploring" others to "do the right thing", not expecting them to really do what is requested, but opening the door for further action when we might wish???

This is simply the escalation which many, including myself predicted would ensue as the Chinese implemented their ADIZ, and make NO MISTAKE, China had every intention of turning up the heat, at least thats the interpretation that seem to be at the root of the US statements. All involved know the US is NOT threatening China but, "imploring" them to turn down the heat.

Hopefully they will be able chill out, and relax about China's show of force, but there is little doubt that our defense partners have requested stronger statements by the US???? None at all......

 

[solarz]

This is simply the escalation which many, including myself predicted would ensue as the Chinese implemented their ADIZ, and make NO MISTAKE, China had every intention of turning up the heat, at least thats the interpretation that seem to be at the root of the US statements. All involved know the US is NOT threatening China but, "imploring" them to turn down the heat.

Why is the Chinese implementation of an ADIZ an escalation, while the Japanese ADIZ is acceptable? How do you justify this double standard?

 

[solarz]

Why Japan should remove ADIZ? If they would remove it China would remove it's?

Many don't have basic backround regarding the ADI Zones in East China Sea.

1) South Korean and Japanese ADIZ were created by US
2) The only country that expanded it's ADIZ wasn't the evil Japan but South Korea which did it last year.

In which case the US would be doubly hypocritical for criticizing the Chinese ADIZ.