East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Status
Not open for further replies.

Brumby

Major
Re: China Flanker Thread II

I think we are all smart and mature enough to recognised the distinction between merely passively monitoring and exercise and getting so close in the name of 'monitoring' in order to actively disrupt what someone was planning on doing.

I just don't buy the notion of disruption as opposed to monitor. The purpose of monitoring is to gather intelligence to hopefully able to gather a gambit of information that may be useful. Disruption is self defeating and probably reflects a lack of understanding of military matters to form such an opinion. I have a non military background but disruption is so illogical.
 

foxmulder

Junior Member
Re: China Flanker Thread II

Sure. But since those surface exercises were near the ADIZ, they clearly monitored the exercises. But you can believe whatever you want.

Yes...they are. Whether it is ships or aircraft, monitoring exercises potentially gives the same results, and that is information about communications, sensors and tactics.

Sorry...but you certainly sound like someone who is either very young, or someone who has never been very involved with any military exercises.

When you are pulling a PR stunt, or doing a "show" for civilians or VIPs, you dazzle.

When you are doing an intelligence gathering mission like these, you would prefer the adversary never see you at all if possible. You are not looking to dazzle or be noticed, you are simply looking to gather intelligence.

LOL :)

Seriously, your reply, kind of, shows how differently we looked at the subject. I meant it would have been pointed by USA and Japan in a "dazzling" fashion as the example of Chinese aggressiveness, not as a PR stunt by PLA.

I am sorry for the off topic. I promise this was the very last post by me.



edited: remove the flanker related bit.
 
Last edited:

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: China Flanker Thread II

I just don't buy the notion of disruption as opposed to monitor. The purpose of monitoring is to gather intelligence to hopefully able to gather a gambit of information that may be useful. Disruption is self defeating and probably reflects a lack of understanding of military matters to form such an opinion. I have a non military background but disruption is so illogical.

The exercise planners and organisers are not stupid. They will know that others will be monitoring their exercises, so are not going to schedule anything that might give prying eyes much actionable intel.

The nature of the Chinese -Russian exercise would also rule out anything too useful for passive watchers as it's the first time both countries have done something of this scale. So it's more of a diplomatic, PR and trust building exercise rather than one designed to practice and test combat tactics under realistic conditions.

The rationale for purposely intruding and disruption an exercise is to provoke the other side into reacting, this reaction would be unscripted, so likely a much realistic reflection of the target's alert level, readiness state and would also yield potentially useful info on reaction thresholds and response times etc.

However, just as the Sino-Russian drills were more about the PR and diplomatic goals rather than purely military objectives, so was the decision to disrupt it. Since one could gather information on all of the above by doing overflights of a single warship on a routine patrol, and get more accurate and useful intel than gatecrashing the exercise.

The decision to intrude was to send a message and provoke a different kind of response, since the Japanese would know perfectly well the disrespect and offence such an active would cause, and I think that was the entire point - to get the Chinese to do something overtly aggressive so they can score some cheap PR points.

That intent is blatantly obvious by the way they tried to make such a big deal out of a non-incident. No doubt they were hoping to get a much stronger reaction, but the fact they raised the issue at all with so little to complain about is a pretty clear indication that the indignant Japanese press release was planned, if not already drafted before the Chinese ships left port, and the Japanese aircraft were mainly sent out on a mission to generate the clash the press release wants to complain about.

-----

Edit, sorry Denio, I drafted most of that reply on my phone during a break and only just saw your remark after I finished and posted it, when the page reloaded (I disabled auto-reload as I didn't wasn't to loose what I wrote already).
 
Last edited:

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member

>>>>>>>>>> MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTION <<<<<<<<<<

With the recent intercept of the Japanese P-3 by the PRC SU-27, near the ADIZ, and with respect to Sino-Russian exercises, and the controversy concerning it, new info on the ADIZ became availabe.

And it was discssed at some length in the Flanker Thread.

So, this thread is now re-opened to discuss that. Stay on topic and keep the discussion within the guidelines.

I moved the posts on the Flanker Thread that dealt with this here.



>>>>>>>> END MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTION <<<<<<<<
 
Last edited:

Blackstone

Brigadier
Looks like the Obama administration is taking sides against China in their Diaoyu island sovereignty dispute with Japan.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Washington (AFP) - The United States warned China Thursday against sparking tensions in international airspace after Japan accused Beijing of "dangerous maneuvers" above disputed seas.

"We do not accept China's declaration of an ADIZ (Air Defense Identification Zone) over the East China Sea and urge China not to implement it," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in a statement.

"We continue to urge China to work with other countries to establish confidence-building measures, including emergency communications channels, which can address dangers and lower tensions."

Japan has alleged that a Chinese fighter on Saturday flew within roughly 30 meters (100 feet) of a Japanese OP-3C surveillance plane above the waters where the countries' air defense identification zones overlap.

Another Chinese SU-27 fighter also flew close to a Japanese YS-11EB plane in the same airspace, the Japanese defense ministry said.

One fighter jet approached to within about 50 meters and the other was as close as 30 meters to the Japanese planes, according to the spokesman.

But Beijing hit back Thursday at Tokyo's claims, saying two Japanese F-15 fighter jets came recklessly close to a Chinese Y-8 transport aircraft in an incident on November 23.

Psaki said Washington urged all states "to ensure that they respect the safety of aircraft in flight."

"Any attempt to interfere with freedom of overflight in international airspace raises regional tensions and increases the risk of miscalculation, confrontation, and unintended incidents," she maintained.

Relations between Japan and China are strained by a territorial dispute over Tokyo-controlled islands in the East China Sea known as Diaoyu in Chinese and Senkaku in Japanese.

Beijing raised regional tensions in November by declaring an air defense identification zone covering the area, which overlaps a similar Japanese zone.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The phrasing of the statement is confusing. Reading it, I thought it was an article from six months ago.

I mean, the ADIZ has been implemented for six months. Saying it shouldn't be implemented at this point is a little late. Of course, they can hardly say "cease" the ADIZ, because that will imply they recognize the existence of the ADIZ.

Implying the interceptions are a danger to freedom of flight is hilarious as well, given the interception activities of both the US and Japan of other nations military aircraft. The entire media-political response to the chinese ADIZ by the US and Japan is shamelessly hypocritical. I mean, hey I can't blame them. Most people don't know much better.


And of course the US is siding against china in this dispute. That was obvious months, years, even decades ago.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Well, I think originally deciding to give administration of the islands to Japan showed where the US stood on the issue back then.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Japan is an ally of the US therefore we have to take their side unless they do something outright idiotic. China however isn't but she isn't an enemy either. They are also our biggest trading partner and getting stronger everyday so alienation or confrontation is out of the question.
I do not envy the Obama admin but i do hope that whatever it is that they do or don't do will not fracture the delicate balance of power.
Personally I don't think it's worth going into WWIII over a couple of rocks... I don't care how much gas or oil is underneath it. It's still not worth destabilizing the entire world over it not to mention the potential loss of countless lives on all sides if mud is flung on the rotor blades.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Exactly, Japan is a US ally, and even though the US and china aren't enemies, the US won't exactly be complaining at opportunities to limit potential chinese territory.

That is why I think any suggestions that the US won't seek to back Japan against china in this dispute is unrealistic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top