H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
The F-14 could do that in the 70s with a mechanical radar. Please, this is really basic stuff. You're way overhyping capabilities that have existed in many countries for decades at this point. No, the B-2 is no longer even close the pinnacle of aerospace technology.
Assign multiple ground targets (including moving ones) and assign them to coordinates in real time (over a decabe before GNSS and even precise INS)? Spare me, please.
In almost all cases, even now, modern fighter bombers attack either pre-designated coordinates, or aim(assign) one target at a time.
According to who? I hope you don't think the B-21 can do things like penetrate Chinese airspace and drop bombs.
I don't know. The numbers US VLO X-planes achieved back around 2000 were, mildly speaking, disturbing(-70 dB-ish).
You can run a simple calculation yourself what this number means, compared to modern VLO/LO.
Yes, those were test planes rather than operational capability. That was 25 years ago, and it's not too difficult to imagine this is a carrot the USAF has wanted ever since.
Keep in mind that a large flying wing with simple geometry will aim to remain stealthy over a much broader band and in all aspects. Add on top that EW is now well ahead as well - both powerful onboard and especially independent offboard ones (once again, radiophysics enter the scene; positioning emitter closer to radar than the protected target does magic).

Back in the 1980s, independent operations within the USSR also seemed ridiculous, but in retrospect, B-2 probably could've done it. With a substantial loss rate, but it could probably.

So, rather than dismiss something as ridiculous off common wisdom (and matching PLAAF effort as futile), I'd consider if it is, in fact, possible. Otherwise, the B-21 program doesn't make any sense; you don't need extreme stealth to lob stand-off missiles. You don't even need a bomber for that - make a shitty drone pylon and carry them to their launch points.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Assign multiple ground targets (including moving ones) and assign them to coordinates in real time (over a decabe before GNSS and even precise INS)? Spare me, please.
In almost all cases, even now, modern fighter bombers attack either pre-designated coordinates, or aim(assign) one target at a time.

I don't know. The numbers US VLO X-planes achieved back around 2000 were, mildly speaking, disturbing(-70 dB-ish).
You can run a simple calculation yourself what this number means, compared to modern VLO/LO.
Yes, those were test planes rather than operational capability. That was 25 years ago, and it's not too difficult to imagine this is a carrot the USAF has wanted ever since.
Keep in mind that a large flying wing with simple geometry will aim to remain stealthy over a much broader band and in all aspects. Add on top that EW is now well ahead as well - both powerful onboard and especially independent offboard ones (once again, radiophysics enter the scene; positioning emitter closer to radar than the protected target does magic).

Back in the 1980s, independent operations within the USSR also seemed ridiculous, but in retrospect, B-2 probably could've done it. With a substantial loss rate, but it could probably.

So, rather than dismiss something as ridiculous off common wisdom (and matching PLAAF effort as futile), I'd consider if it is, in fact, possible. Otherwise, the B-21 program doesn't make any sense; you don't need extreme stealth to lob stand-off missiles. You don't even need a bomber for that - make a shitty drone pylon and carry them to their launch points.
The current intended conceptual employment for the B-21 is for it to use standoff range weapons. That tells you a lot about what the USAF thinks of its survivability in deep penetration scenarios against China. Against the capabilities of modern radar and other detections systems that’s the level of stealth you’d need to survive from standoff range. Don’t forget that radar technology didn’t stay idle over the last 40 years.
 
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TK3600

Colonel
Registered Member
Yankee spoke about his thoughts on H-20 previously, I think the last time he talked about it at length was when Operation Midnight Hammer was happening last year when US was using B-2 to drop GBU-57 on Iranian nuclear facilities. He said he had changed his thoughts on H-20 twice.

Initially, he thought H-20 was badly needed, it would give PLAAF a lot of new capabilities that wasn't easily achievable by other means.

Over time however, he started to reconsider this when it became clear there's a pattern of using conventional strategic bombers (B-52,Tu-95, H-6) to launch longer and longer range stand off weapons. Although the public still often thought of strategic bombers as flying over head and dumping a stream of iron bombs the reality was besides the rare opportunities when you need to drop a GBU-57 deep in enemy territory that's unheard of. Instead bombers are becoming cruise missile trucks like how Tu-95MS is used in the Ukraine war. Yankee figured if this trend continues then the urgency for a VLO bomber would no longer be so high, since firing super long range stand off weapons don't necessarily require a VLO bomber.

Around about Operation Midnight Hammer he had another change of heart. With the large scale (13 in all) use of B-2 during Operation Midnight Hammer including that decoy group at Diego Garcia Yankee saw that besides just being a platform, planes like B-2 had intangible values that's hard to quantify. People of the world sees one of those things and immediately think of the owner as a superpower. This is why he started to call H-20 a Ding/鼎 and argue that it's indeed needed because you need a symbol like that if you want to be a superpower, and once you have it everyone starts to evaluate you differently. The additional intangible value above it's value as a weapon system means it is worth developing.
Yes,H-20 is still useful to bully country with poor air defense. The idea of a large bomber coming in undetected at any time inspires submission.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Value of bombers like B21 or H20 essentially boils down to this: Can they actually fly deep inside peer enemy airspace, drop stand-in weapons, and get out - without being detected and engaged? If the answer to that is yes 9 out of 10 missions - then they're not worth it. If it's yes for 99 out of 100 missions - then maybe. And that's a very tall order for either US or China. In a sense, China and H20 may have it easier there, as more of their missions might entail bombing various island bases in the Pacific. Where US detection asset network may not be as thick and as capable as China's network against B21 trying to reach Beijing, Chengdu, Wuhan etc.

If such bombers are lost too easily and too often - then they don't make sense. During Linebacker II campaign, 741 B52 bomber sorties were made, and 15 planes were lost. That's two percent loss ratio per sortie - which USAF saw as very worrying and which would be unsustainable in a long term war. Even when US had hundreds of B52s in fleet. With H20 and B21, it's almost assured there will be fewer bombers in either fleet.

I think there are, broadly speaking, two types of combat scenarios, peer/near-peer and curbstomp, and you are applying the cost-benefit calculation of one scenario against the expected loss ratio of the other.

When the US was deciding if Linebacker was worthwhile, they were applying the loss ratio of curbstomp, where there was no serious question of whether the USAF could hit those targets, only at what price it would need to pay in treasure and blood. However, if the war was fought against the USSR directly, then the USAF would have had an entirely different level of acceptable losses.

Similarly, in determining whether or not the H20 is worthwhile, the correct measuring stick is the one of peer/near-peer, where successful prosecution of targets is far from guaranteed; indeed, the boarder outcome of the whole combat mission and even war itself is not a forgone conclusion.

With such high stakes, the cost-benefit analysis is fundamentally different, as it’s not just a question of how much it costs to destroy the target, but rather what price you are prepared to pay to destroy those targets. Indeed, you also need to factor in opportunity costs and broader mission/campaign risks as well, so it’s not just a matter of killing something, but being able to kill it by a certain time and the degree of warning you give the enemy.

For example, in the event of war, high value, high impact assets like long range early warning radars, air defence batteries, offensive cruise missile launchers and airfields will be high priority targets that needs hitting and taken out of action ASAP. Failure to do so by the prerequisite time could easily result in far heavier losses on friendly strike elements and maybe even result in the loss of key assets, battles or even entire campaigns.

The ability of stealth bombers to hit highly defended hard targets with minimal warning time and high probability of success is of paramount importance in this context.

It’s of little use to spam a thousand Shaheds at such targets to wear them down 6-8 business days after they needed to have died.

Now, granted China’s dominance in hypersonics does overlap somewhat and takes a lot of the pressure off the H20 programme, and as such, I would suggest that any slippage in the priority list of the H20 would be down far more to do with China’s hypersonic missile advancements as opposed to thinking H6 missile trucks or drone spamming are good enough direct alternatives.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
For a short war, sure, one can afford to lose quite a few bombers per X sorties. But a total war between US and China may very well not be a short war. Hitting some early warning radars, AD batteries, airbases would be meaningless in the grand scheme of things - as the enemy can replace or repair those and has many more in immediate stock. In a long war, it'd be literally like a fraction of one percent of targets needed to be hit. It's no problem to have one bad-luck mission and lose 2 bombers out of 10 sent on a mission. But if month after month, mission after mission, you're losing 2 out of 10 per mission - that's not gonna work in a US vs China war. For either side.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
For a short war, sure, one can afford to lose quite a few bombers per X sorties. But a total war between US and China may very well not be a short war. Hitting some early warning radars, AD batteries, airbases would be meaningless in the grand scheme of things - as the enemy can replace or repair those and has many more in immediate stock.

As America is demonstrating its amazing high value asset regeneration capabilities with Iran? And only the US gets to regenerate destroyed assets but China can’t regenerate lost bombers?

And even if America does possess this magical asset regeneration capability, how’s it going to magic these replacement assets on station after China has taken the islands they were previously based on?

In a long war, it'd be literally like a fraction of one percent of targets needed to be hit.

And who said H20 is the only strike asset that needs hit single-handedly hit every single target for the whole war?

It's no problem to have one bad-luck mission and lose 2 bombers out of 10 sent on a mission. But if month after month, mission after mission, you're losing 2 out of 10 per mission - that's not gonna work in a US vs China war. For either side.

And what this is based on? In what world are you expecting linear combat losses?

Overall I see no logical or reasonable points being made, just a load of straw-man arguments and unreasonable excuses.

H20s fall in the category of tip-of-the-spear and door-kickers that are meant to take down the toughest targets and break open the enemy’s strongest defences to allow follow-on forces to do their job and deal the lion share of the damage. They are not meant to be the bomb trucks.

Similarly, once you have dealt critical damage to the enemy’s key assets and forces, they will not be able to fight as effectively as they are designed to, so your loss rates should drop exponentially instead of remaining linear over time.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I am sorry, it is looking like you're starting to argue with me. I'm not interested in a back and forth exchange. Plus there's a misunderstanding abound. I was not talking about China nor US, or taking any side, I was talking about the collective issue of stealth bombers. Who has more of what or who can regenerate what doesn't interest me at this point. I was merely trying to illustrate the justification or lack of it for a stealth bomber as a concept in a peer total war of tomorrow. As seen in Ukraine and other wars through history, wars aren't necessarily a matter of one side gaining upper hand and that being that. There can be twists and turns and mistakes made, periods when one side produces more, then periods when other side produces more. Allies joining one side or the other, etc. I am not looking for anyone's approval or agreement, but i am stating it is possible that bomber losses, for any side, may not follow a clear curve where they eventually dwindle to sustainable levels, but that they may indeed be kept high enough that, over time, production can't follow the need or losses.
 
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