It's still common for bombers including the B-2 and B-21 to include air to ground radars so they can perform targeting if necessary.
H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)
- Thread starter Deino
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An AWACs can track hundreds of targets, and then assign aircraft and missiles to engage those targets.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Artillery cannot see their targets themselves, does that mean artillery doesn’t make sense? 1000km range also allows you to go after opfor back line support and enablers like AWACS and tankers while keeping well behind friendly fighter screens yourself.
Also, 1000km ranges AAMs on conventional fighters = zero stealth even if the fighters are 5th gen as they won’t be able to internally carry them. If you use masses of legacy fighters like J16s/F15s to carry them, then opfor can detect them at extended range and be prepared accordingly or just avoid their threat envelope entirely. It would be a similar dynamic to subs vs surface ships in terms of visibility of threat and corresponding impact on strategy and tactics.
But AAM is really a peripheral bonus capacity instead of a core design requirement, and in itself may even be a secondary capability of primarily land attack focused munitions such as with CJ1000 instead of a dedicated specific missile.
Yankee spoke about his thoughts on H-20 previously, I think the last time he talked about it at length was when Operation Midnight Hammer was happening last year when US was using B-2 to drop GBU-57 on Iranian nuclear facilities. He said he had changed his thoughts on H-20 twice.
Initially, he thought H-20 was badly needed, it would give PLAAF a lot of new capabilities that wasn't easily achievable by other means.
Over time however, he started to reconsider this when it became clear there's a pattern of using conventional strategic bombers (B-52,Tu-95, H-6) to launch longer and longer range stand off weapons. Although the public still often thought of strategic bombers as flying over head and dumping a stream of iron bombs the reality was besides the rare opportunities when you need to drop a GBU-57 deep in enemy territory that's unheard of. Instead bombers are becoming cruise missile trucks like how Tu-95MS is used in the Ukraine war. Yankee figured if this trend continues then the urgency for a VLO bomber would no longer be so high, since firing super long range stand off weapons don't necessarily require a VLO bomber.
Around about Operation Midnight Hammer he had another change of heart. With the large scale (13 in all) use of B-2 during Operation Midnight Hammer including that decoy group at Diego Garcia Yankee saw that besides just being a platform, planes like B-2 had intangible values that's hard to quantify. People of the world sees one of those things and immediately think of the owner as a superpower. This is why he started to call H-20 a Ding/鼎 and argue that it's indeed needed because you need a symbol like that if you want to be a superpower, and once you have it everyone starts to evaluate you differently. The additional intangible value above it's value as a weapon system means it is worth developing.
Initially, he thought H-20 was badly needed, it would give PLAAF a lot of new capabilities that wasn't easily achievable by other means.
Over time however, he started to reconsider this when it became clear there's a pattern of using conventional strategic bombers (B-52,Tu-95, H-6) to launch longer and longer range stand off weapons. Although the public still often thought of strategic bombers as flying over head and dumping a stream of iron bombs the reality was besides the rare opportunities when you need to drop a GBU-57 deep in enemy territory that's unheard of. Instead bombers are becoming cruise missile trucks like how Tu-95MS is used in the Ukraine war. Yankee figured if this trend continues then the urgency for a VLO bomber would no longer be so high, since firing super long range stand off weapons don't necessarily require a VLO bomber.
Around about Operation Midnight Hammer he had another change of heart. With the large scale (13 in all) use of B-2 during Operation Midnight Hammer including that decoy group at Diego Garcia Yankee saw that besides just being a platform, planes like B-2 had intangible values that's hard to quantify. People of the world sees one of those things and immediately think of the owner as a superpower. This is why he started to call H-20 a Ding/鼎 and argue that it's indeed needed because you need a symbol like that if you want to be a superpower, and once you have it everyone starts to evaluate you differently. The additional intangible value above it's value as a weapon system means it is worth developing.
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Value of bombers like B21 or H20 essentially boils down to this: Can they actually fly deep inside peer enemy airspace, drop stand-in weapons, and get out - without being detected and engaged? If the answer to that is yes 9 out of 10 missions - then they're not worth it. If it's yes for 99 out of 100 missions - then maybe. And that's a very tall order for either US or China. In a sense, China and H20 may have it easier there, as more of their missions might entail bombing various island bases in the Pacific. Where US detection asset network may not be as thick and as capable as China's network against B21 trying to reach Beijing, Chengdu, Wuhan etc.
If such bombers are lost too easily and too often - then they don't make sense. During Linebacker II campaign, 741 B52 bomber sorties were made, and 15 planes were lost. That's two percent loss ratio per sortie - which USAF saw as very worrying and which would be unsustainable in a long term war. Even when US had hundreds of B52s in fleet. With H20 and B21, it's almost assured there will be fewer bombers in either fleet.
If such bombers are lost too easily and too often - then they don't make sense. During Linebacker II campaign, 741 B52 bomber sorties were made, and 15 planes were lost. That's two percent loss ratio per sortie - which USAF saw as very worrying and which would be unsustainable in a long term war. Even when US had hundreds of B52s in fleet. With H20 and B21, it's almost assured there will be fewer bombers in either fleet.
I think the actual question is whether or not you need a bomber at all, as any new bomber designed in this age will be a stealth bomber, Radar reduction is just the new baseline. With ever more powerful radar systems and longer ranged a2a missiles, conventional bombers are becoming more and more vulnerable.
Current interpretation is that signature control in fact outpaces radar development.
Maybe absolute solutions (quantum radars) will break the pattern, but sensors in many ways hit hard physics. A lot of investment and edge development for ~dozen or so percent effectiveness percentage points a time.
I think the vast majority of H-20 missions will be against isolated island bases.
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Consider that within the 1st Island Chain, almost all targets can be reached by:
1. Heavyweight fighter-bombers which can launch 100km ranged glide bombs safely offshore
2. Tomahawk/JASSM/Shaheed type cruise missiles launched from trucks on mainland China.
So there isn't really any need for a H-20/B-21 class bomber for these missions
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In the 2nd Island Chain, it really is isolated islands, so there's no need for a H-20 to ever overfly hostile landmasses. The most challenging scenario is if they have to use glide bombs.
In any case, the Chinese plan is to use the J-36 and carrier aviation to obtain air superiority over those isolated islands.
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In the 3rd Island Chain, all the targets are islands or coastal so the most challenging scenario is around glide bombs. But here, the H-20 will be alone and unsupported.
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Then there are the naval targets, particularly the carrier groups. For this sort of mission, the H-20 will definitely be using fast, long-range missiles
The F-14 could do that in the 70s with a mechanical radar. Please, this is really basic stuff. You're way overhyping capabilities that have existed in many countries for decades at this point. No, the B-2 is no longer even close the pinnacle of aerospace technology.
According to who? I hope you don't think the B-21 can do things like penetrate Chinese airspace and drop bombs.