Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Lethe

Captain
I don't think these narratives of Russia over France or France over Russia provide a useful framework for thinking about these matters.

Moscow is not India's friend. Paris is not India's friend. Tel Aviv is not India's friend. Washington is definitely not India's friend. All of these nations want to sell India the milk and keep the cow. India has more leverage than most customers because of the current and potential future scale of its requirements (and because India can plausibly source from essentially all but Chinese vendors). But this only works to the extent that India is actually willing to commit funds commensurate with what it is asking for. MMRCA was dashed against precisely those rocks: GoI was not willing to commit funds on the scale that was required to realise the ambitions that had been formulated.

The objective is to leverage platforms and technologies from a variety of nations to both meet military needs in the present, while furthering the long-term development of indigenous capabilities. Becoming too dependent on any one partner nation is to be avoided because it both exposes India to potential adverse political developments and, more prosaically, reduces India's bargaining power in future negotiations. This is the problem they are now having with General Electric, which knows that it is in a strong bargaining position and so does not feel particularly compelled to offer generous terms.

India went all-in on Su-30MKI around the turn of the millennium. This was the big win (for Moscow) and big commitment/dependency (for Delhi) that should not be overlooked simply because it is "old news" -- it has framed everything since. Combined with then-recent and ongoing MiG-29 commitments, the appetite for Russian hardware was more than sated and there was accordingly a strong presumption against a Russian solution for MMRCA. If IAF/MoD could not get Rafale alone across the line in the early-mid 2010s, there was no prospect of being able to simultaneously pursue FGFA on top of it. Sacrificing the latter was an easy choice to make. Post MMRCA, attention has continued to remain fixed on acquisition of new western combat aircraft, preferably Rafale. It is not about being anti-Russian, but about not becoming too dependent on Russia while also trying to maintain momentum towards a solution that is already well understood across a robust network of relationships. Trump has certainly simplified matters by highlighting the risks of dependency on Washington.

Accordingly, if and when that Rafale acquisition eventually closes, there will again be the opportunity space to consider Russian solutions. Moreover, the timeframe for a future Russian acquisition has now been pushed out far enough that future Su-57s can actually directly replace Su-30MKIs such that it would not reflect a further deepening of dependency. Conversely, the notion of building upon a large Rafale acquisition by also hitching up with FCAS would be problematic as it would risk becoming overly dependent on France. It is more complicated than that owing to the interactions with AMCA, the pathway to a notional indigenous engine, and the potential for India to wield more leverage in its relations with France than it can with Russia, but the basic principle of diversified dependency remains.
 
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Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
Moscow is not India's friend.
To be fair, while there's a significant opposition to it in India (western cultural/visa pull is huge everywhere, Russia is certainly not a stranger to the same), Moscow is very much seen as India's friend, and vise versa.
There's a very strong backstory between India and Soviet Union/Russia, after all.

And while indian voices that "FGFA doesn't produce solution superior to Rafale" were obviously given by interested parties in context of defending rafale acquisition, and while they are understood to have roughly same value as those which considered Rafale equal to J-20, they did cause harm nonetheless.

It's hard to deny India significantly cut procurement of Russian equipment from 2014-15 onwards, it's hard to deny it didn't help performance of Russian equipment in two conflicts since then, which was totally avoidable.
 
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_killuminati_

Major
Registered Member
India had partnered with Russia to develop a two-seater version of the Su-57. Then India pulled out and decided to develop the AMCA. They cited that the Su-57 wasn't good enough for them.

Why should India return to a plane that it had rejected when it now wants to join France to develop the FCAS? The Indians have already pivoted to the France for awhile. Now India is treating Russia like a 2nd tier supplier.

Russia for it's part has been rather generous with sharing technology with India for decades. HAL have assembled Migs for decades. So why hasn't India absorbed the ToT to produce proper fighters and engines today? This is a question for India to answer.
India also manufactures the Su-30 and it's AL-31FP engine. Should have atleast attempted a smaller derivative and gradually improve on it.
 

Anhad

New Member
Registered Member
This has gotta be one of the stupidest types of cope shit I've ever come across in this forum.

Really? You think that Rafale's engines are hung underneath wing pylons like normal commercial jetliners (right), where the aircraft can still fly even when the engine detaches from its underwing pylon, as long as the aircraft's wing structural integrity is maintained?

View attachment 177310 View attachment 177311

On the other hand, Rafale's engines (left) are entirely enveloped/enclosed by the fuselage (i.e., the main structural body) of the Rafale airframe. If that engine can fall out of the fuselage, that means the forces involved in causing this to happen would've caused the entire aircraft to suffer a catastrophic structural failure of the airframe, such that the whole aircraft would have disintegrated in the first place.

I don't think this requires advanced understanding in the engineering and physics fields to understand and acknowledge.
What I'm saying is that an image showing a single engine lying on the ground could be AI-generated, edited, misidentified, or something else entirely. By itself, it doesn't prove a Rafale crashed. If a Rafale had actually crashed, you would expect to see a crash site with substantial wreckage in one place, not just isolated images of a single engine or a lone tail fin, as those circulating on social media appear to show.
 

thingymabob

New Member
Registered Member
What I'm saying is that an image showing a single engine lying on the ground could be AI-generated, edited, misidentified, or something else entirely. By itself, it doesn't prove a Rafale crashed. If a Rafale had actually crashed, you would expect to see a crash site with substantial wreckage in one place, not just isolated images of a single engine or a lone tail fin, as those circulating on social media appear to show.

I really don't like participating in these discussions because they really don't end going anywhere because one side can easily deflect anything in the face of overwhelming evidence if they wanted, even without logical basis.

The crux of the matter is that those who deny are not working in the logical headspace in this argument and hence logical counterarguments cannot go through. Consider the case that such images were presented of the M88 engine within a field crushed, the tail of BS-001 captured on video from a varying angle capturing its dimensions perfectly and the footage of the Rafale-unique MICA pylon lying on the ground detached from its wing and burnt... but with the context that it was an accident that had occurred whether it be pilot error, maintenance issues or sheer bad luck. I doubt there would have been much protest within the Indian military enthusiast side with such a loss when presented with such evidence.

Most would have looked to it as a case of things to improve upon or mistakes to avoid in future and just left it there as a slightly embarrassing but mostly inconsequential event, like of the many military aviation accidents that all air forces around the world inevitably suffer here and there.

However... the issue is that in reality, the cause of such a loss was most likely due to a shootdown by a Pakistani plane. This is tantamount to a narcissistic injury. The image that India has been built up that Pakistani planes and their forces were completely inferior to Indian forces with high-quality, imported European technology as opposed to the cheap, dodgy Chinese stuff that Pakistan received. That pride in making such a choice and possessing such "superior Western" technology, and the self-assurance that when push comes to shove, the Indian air force would blow out the Pakistanis with no issue because of that difference. That fragile façade, the collective-national ego that places India firmly above Pakistan, shattered when confronted with the events that have occurred.

The only possible response is to deflect, deny and lash out at any suggestion that clashes with that carefully crafted and maintained image of superiority.

Am I saying that the events of 5/7 definitely show that the Pakistani air force outclasses the Indian air force completely? Am I saying all Indian military enthusiasts and fans act like this? No, but at the very least those who are very vocal and feverishly nationalistic who make their presence online quite present are those of which this description applies to and always end up butting their heads into these conversations to dredge up these already well-established events with these fantasy suggestions.

Those are my two cents and really another way of saying that this discussion will as always, never go anywhere conclusively when such fickle things like national pride and emotions are present to such a degree.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
What I'm saying is that an image showing a single engine lying on the ground could be AI-generated, edited, misidentified, or something else entirely. By itself, it doesn't prove a Rafale crashed. If a Rafale had actually crashed, you would expect to see a crash site with substantial wreckage in one place, not just isolated images of a single engine or a lone tail fin, as those circulating on social media appear to show.

Nope.

If an aircraft suffers from a catastrophic structural failure that resulted in the disintegration of the airframe mid-air (which is totally expected for any aircraft that has been directly struck by a SAM or an AAM), the debris field can spread over a very wide area, depending on how high the aircraft was in the sky when the aircraft begins disintegrating, how fast the aircraft was travelling when it got it, the wind speed and direction in the area during the hit and crash, and to what degree/stages of which the aircraft disintegrated before pieces of the aircraft hit the ground.

This is why the ill-fated MH17 had a debris field in Eastern Ukraine that is about 4 times the size of London Heathrow International Airport, as it disintegrated mid-air soon after being struck by a surface-to-air missile back in July 2014.

A crash site would contain all of the crashed aircraft's parts (i.e., localized to just one spot) only if the aircraft hits the ground in one full, complete piece, which is pretty much impossible in the case of an aircraft with its fuselage violently getting torn apart by the explosion of an AAM or a SAM on/right next to the aircraft's body. Even if the aircraft crashed at one location with much of its airframe intact, at least some bits and pieces of the aircraft definitely will break apart and break off from the main body of the aircraft and hit the ground earlier than and far from the rest of the aircraft's parts.



So, instead of continuing to cope and finding more excuses, how about you ask your Indian Air Force to assemble all of your Rafales and take a photo of all of them together in one shot, without any PS or CG involved, so that international observers like us can verify for ourselves? We've seen how your news media are all too eager to showcase rows of Tejas without their engines installed and pass them off as if they are fully completed airframes, so I don't see why it is so difficult for them to do the same with your Rafale fleet.
 
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CannedFish

New Member
Registered Member
India also manufactures the Su-30 and it's AL-31FP engine. Should have atleast attempted a smaller derivative and gradually improve on it.
I distinctly remember that there were a few posts on this thread discussing wether or not the Indians could actually manufacture the hot cores for their AL-31FPs themselves or if they have to import the hot cores from Russia.

That discussion ended with a quote from some high rank Indian official stating that they do, in fact import cores from Russia.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Generative AI is not capable of producing images like these below (of one of the shot down Indian Rafale). Generative AI of May 2025, much less so.

Actual Indian Rafale shot down by Pakistani operated J-10CE with PL-15E missile:



1782737273379.png

1782737298582.png


Many videos of this Bathinda based Rafale site were online. Indians themselves uploaded them and now few exist because India has been cracking down heavily on it.


BTW the other engine is right there in the two screenshots.

One M88 is shown with a longitudinal crack along its combustion chamber section while the other does not have the same crack. Both are uniquely identifiable by their petals/nozzle wrecks.

Just look in the Kashmir war thread in this very forum from May 5th onwards and you will see thousands of links and images and video evidence from India bases getting hit by Pakistani strikes (however limited those strikes were given Pakistan didn't and couldn't escalate) and the many Rafale, Su-30MKI, Mig-29 wreck images and videos.

BTW this is the quality of Meta AI's generated image in June 2026 which is light years ahead of what was available in May 2025:

1782737648747.png


Zero accurate details. Almost none of the parts match and line up with a real M88 engine.

Try to create two videos of the wreck even with June 2026 AI and you couldn't get it to be as 1:1 identifiable as the May 2025 images.

Everything in the AI image is wrong because the AI does not have a good enough understanding of what the actual internals of M88 is.

Suppose you use the best AI we have today and feed it very accurate images of trade show cross sections of the M88 and it still cannot generate an accurate one. AI is so easily identifiable even to dimwits online and here Indian jai hinds are desperate to claim AI because it's a convenient excuse but the reality is Pakistan shot down at least 1 Rafale with France confirming it. The Swedish organisation that tracks warplane losses confirming 2 or 3 (i can't recall which it was) and Indian politicians tacitly admitting Rafales shot down.

If you don't want to believe it. It's okay. Doesn't change the standing of the world.

One can claim India to be a superpower and whatnot all they want but it doesn't change the standing of the world. People just get Indian fatigue with more of those claims of capability India simply does not have.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
More of the other engine below.

No AI even today is capable of generating this level of realism. Yes it's grainy (AI images are either cartoonish or dull but high resolution, never detailed and grainy like potato cams operated by the guys who took the video).

1782739109369.png

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1782739251048.png

Nozzle section/ petals clearly different from the other engine.

1782739346406.png


This clip still survives the Indian government's intense efforts to hide, obfuscate and lie and can be found here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FrenchArmedForces/comments/1kjlz6m
 
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