Chinese semiconductor thread II

tokenanalyst

Lieutenant General
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HVAC Ultra-precision optical thin film coating solutions <my guess analog to the Nessy series>​

  1. Extremely high precision in membrane layer control:
    • Thickness control : Reaching the sub-nanometer level requires extremely high uniformity and repeatability of film thickness.
    • Refractive index control : Precisely control the refractive index and extinction coefficient of the thin film material to ensure that the optical constants are consistent with the design.
  2. Extremely low loss and scattering:
    • Absorption loss : In high-power applications such as lasers, absorption must be reduced to the ppm level.
    • Scattering loss : An extremely smooth substrate and film interface is required to minimize scattering loss.
  3. Excellent environmental stability and reliability:
    • It can withstand harsh environments such as extreme temperature, humidity, salt spray, and strong radiation, ensuring that its performance does not degrade over a long period of time.
  4. Complex spectral characteristics:
    • It achieves complex spectral parameters such as ultra-narrowband, ultra-wideband, deep cutoff, and steep transition.
  5. Large-area uniformity:
    • Achieving nanometer-scale film thickness uniformity on large-size substrates.

1. Core coating technology​

  • Ion beam sputtering
    • Principle : The target material is bombarded by an independent ion source, and the sputtered atoms/molecules are deposited onto the substrate at high energy to form a film.
    • Advantages:
      • The film is dense , exhibiting properties close to those of bulk materials, and has excellent environmental stability.
      • Extremely low optical loss : Absorption and scattering losses are extremely low, making it the first choice for high-end laser lenses.
      • Precise and controllable : Process parameters are independently controllable and have good repeatability.
    • Applications : High-reflectivity mirrors, anti-reflection coatings, filters, especially high-power laser films.
  • Ion-assisted deposition
    • Principle : In the traditional thermal evaporation process, the growing film layer is bombarded with an ion source.
    • Advantages:
      • Increase the density of the membrane layer and reduce the loose structure.
      • It improves film stress and enhances adhesion.
      • With a lower cost compared to IBS, it is a compromise solution for many precision applications.
    • Applications : Most precision optical components that require high performance but do not need to be perfect.
  • Magnetron sputtering
    • Principle : Using a magnetic field to confine plasma, increasing the gas ionization rate, and sputtering the target at high speed.
    • Advantages:
      • It has a high deposition rate and is suitable for large-area coating.
      • The film has good uniformity and better stability than traditional evaporation.
    • Applications : Large-area display panels, architectural glass, and optical films for consumer electronics.

2. Precision monitoring and control system​

  • Optical monitoring:
    • Direct light control : Monitors changes in transmittance or reflectance at a specific wavelength in real time during the deposition process, stopping when a preset value is reached. Suitable for applications requiring extremely high precision in the center wavelength, such as ultra-narrowband filters.
  • Crystal Control:
    • Thickness is indirectly controlled by measuring the quality of the film layer deposited on a quartz wafer. This method is suitable for controlling the thickness of most layers in multilayer films and offers good stability.
  • Broadband monitoring:
    • Real-time measurement of the spectrum across the entire wavelength range and fitting it to theoretical designs allows for dynamic correction of process parameters. This is a key technology for realizing ultra-complex membrane systems.

3. Ultra-cleanliness and environmental control​

  • Ultra-high vacuum system : The background vacuum needs to reach 10⁻⁶ Pa or even higher to ensure that the film layer is pure and free of contamination.
  • Precise substrate processing:
    • This includes ultra-precision polishing, rigorous ultrasonic cleaning, and plasma cleaning to ensure that the substrate surface achieves atomic-level cleanliness.
  • Precise temperature control system : controls substrate temperature, affecting film stress and microstructure.

Typical application areas​

  1. High-end laser systems:
    • Requirements : Extremely high damage threshold and extremely low absorption loss.
    • Products : High-reflection mirrors, output coupling mirrors, harmonic separators, etc.
  2. Gravitational wave detection and astronomical observation:
    • Requirements : Achieve extremely low loss and scattering on a single substrate.
    • Product : The core lens of the interferometer, whose performance directly determines the detection sensitivity.
  3. Extreme ultraviolet lithography :
    • Requirement : Achieve a multilayer film with a reflectivity of up to 70% at a wavelength of 13.5 nm.
    • Technology : Mo/Si multilayer film, with requirements for interface roughness and thickness control at the atomic level.
  4. Quantum Communication and Computing:
    • Requirements : High-precision control of a specific wavelength and extremely low fluorescence background.
    • Products : Optical components used in ion traps and single-photon detectors.
View attachment 176915
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This is magnetron sputter for high precision optic coating, including EUV bragg mirrors.

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Wrought

Captain
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Seems that some other folks are also noticing the elephant in the room.

"China is increasingly able to make more-advanced chips with legacy tools, so the US concerns may reflect Chinese engineering progress rather than any lapse in ASML's compliance with export controls," said Masahiro Wakasugi, a Bloomberg analyst.

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tphuang

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european_guy

Junior Member
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my thread on Sunmmio's 3D token design structure, this new 3D IC chip and stuff.


it's truly dumb that the title refers to it as AI machine.

This is very interesting approach.

It resembles main processors of smartphones, where the multi layer LPDDR5X RAM stack on the top of the processor. This is standard since many years already.

What is different in this case is the 16 TB/s of memory bandwidth due to TSV vias instead of much fewer solder balls of traditional Package-on-Package (PoP).

Possibly also the RAM quantity needs to be increased: smartphones can have currently up to 32GB on 8 layers....but maybe for small/medium models is already enough (it could handle 10B/30B parameter models on 4 bit quantization, depending on context).

The big challenge here seems to be power consumption: mobile chips are allowed to consume just few Watt, not only due to battery, but especially due to heat dissipation constraints.
 

iewgnem

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Seems that some other folks are also noticing the elephant in the room.



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I noticed even when considering that possibility they're still limiting it to advanced multi-patterning and not EUV.
There is genuinely an existential fear of even thinking about Chinese EUV, they have became so psychological dependant on the belief that EUV is a gift from god that they will mentally shatter when the obvious happens.
 

Some1Guy

Junior Member
Registered Member
I noticed even when considering that possibility they're still limiting it to advanced multi-patterning and not EUV.
There is genuinely an existential fear of even thinking about Chinese EUV, they have became so psychological dependant on the belief that EUV is a gift from god that they will mentally shatter when the obvious happens.
It's almost like they consider it God's chosen tech and there's no way that non-'God's chosen' could achieve such a thing. They literally have to write articles responding to each other to calm themselves down.

Once China break trough EUV it's gonna boost it's soft power like nothing else.
 

Michael90

Senior Member
Registered Member
It's almost like they consider it God's chosen tech and there's no way that non-'God's chosen' could achieve such a thing. They literally have to write articles responding to each other to calm themselves down.

Once China break trough EUV it's gonna boost it's soft power like nothing else.
lol yeah, there is this and civil aviation. The moment China is able to independently produce this products will be the day China has fully arrived to be honest. Everything else will just be a bonus/add on. Looking at 2030s to see this trend emerging. when that happens I don’t think there will be anything the US/West can do to stop china, they will give up that strategy (mostly the US).
 

european_guy

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Japanese chip equipment sales to China fall 10%, as curbs ‘backfire’

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Tokyo Electron, Advantest, Screen Holdings, Disco and Kokusai Electric reported 1.47 trillion yen ($9.19 billion) in combined sales in China, down 12 percent from fiscal 2024, according to the Nikkei Asia report.

$9.19 billion in 2025....still plenty of room to grow for Chinese SME manufacturers!
 
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