New (not totally) sailless SSN (09X?) thread

Tomboy

Captain
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Sure, the likelihood that it's not at all nuclear doesn't seem great. But it could possibly be an answer to the Type 041, IF indeed that project stalled and has been essentially cancelled. Maybe this sailess sub is another try at a low-power nuclear reactor concept. With a more powerful reactor pack than one that was put in the Type 041, yet one that is still not comparable to proper high speed nuclear attack subs like 093 and 095. Basically, we don't know almost anything, so speculation like this is rampant...
I doubt it, as mentioned by alot of people, the greatest advantage in removing the sail is acoustic performance at high speeds. The less drag is just a beneficial bonus, not the main reason. Also, the power required to propel a 10kt+ displacement boat even at a modest speed of 25kn is still going to require basically a fullsized reactor anyways.

We also know the configuration of the reactor on this boat is of a different configuration architecture to the Type 041 one.
 
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Aspide

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We also know the configuration of the reactor on this boat is of a different configuration architecture to the Type 041 one.
'Scuse me, I must have missed it. What do we know of 041 reactor configuration?
 

AndrewS

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Sure, the likelihood that it's not at all nuclear doesn't seem great. But it could possibly be an answer to the Type 041, IF indeed that project stalled and has been essentially cancelled. Maybe this sailess sub is another try at a low-power nuclear reactor concept. With a more powerful reactor pack than one that was put in the Type 041, yet one that is still not comparable to proper high speed nuclear attack subs like 093 and 095. Basically, we don't know almost anything, so speculation like this is rampant...

Also, if you have a submarine with a low-power reactor, it's not really suited to operating that far from base, and the lower speed is far less effective in hunting other submarines or even surface ships.

So why would you need such a submarine to be 10K tonnes (with a lot more torpedoes and VLS) rather than the 4K tonnes of the Type-041?

The only rationale that makes sense is that the 09X is optimised/designed for undersea warfare. And from what we can see, it should be quieter and faster than any US submarine.

Also note that the next-gen SSNX from US shipyards is not due until the 2040s
 

tphuang

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I think it's fair to assume that for a sub this large with design feature indicating desire for quite high cruising speed that you would need a pretty large reactor - my guess in 200MWt range. I don't see how a 75MWt reactor would be sufficient. Also, I continue to believe you need a large battery pack to support peak power requirement.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Brigadier
Registered Member
Sure, the likelihood that it's not at all nuclear doesn't seem great. But it could possibly be an answer to the Type 041, IF indeed that project stalled and has been essentially cancelled. Maybe this sailess sub is another try at a low-power nuclear reactor concept. With a more powerful reactor pack than one that was put in the Type 041, yet one that is still not comparable to proper high speed nuclear attack subs like 093 and 095. Basically, we don't know almost anything, so speculation like this is rampant...
Going a little bit nuclear is like being a little bit pregnant. There's no such thing: you are or you aren't. There's no reason whatsoever to install a small nuclear reactor on a submarine with this kind of displacement. The value proposition for the 041 was that a much smaller, lower power reactor would be much cheaper to build, install, and maintain so that the submarine's costs, while higher than a diesel AIP's, aren't that much higher. That bet doesn't seem to have panned out, I suspect because of the high upfront costs of dealing with nuclear materials in any quantity.

That proposition makes even less sense here. If you're going to go to the trouble of certifying another yard to work with nuclear materials, you might as well install as powerful a reactor as you can stuff into the vessel.
 

Tomboy

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this is a good article out of India actually. It showcases a lot of satellite photos of JN shipyard and the new FAH/Final Assembly Hall for submarine construction at JN.

It has two set of tracks in there. and based on the dimension of FAH, I'd think you can build 4 submarines at the same time in there. The number of launches per year would depend on how quickly and how much work need to be done in FAH. At least to start off, I wouldn't expect more than 2 launches per year.

I would ignore the stuff on the bottom, which I think are just wrong assessment.
This is pretty interesting, perhaps it is now possible or even realistic for PLAN to catch up to USN in SSN numbers by the early 2030s. AFAIK combined Chinese production capability of SSN could theoretically reach ~8 boats per year (6x in Bohai and 2x at JN). Though I doubt that this rate would be reached anytime soon, assuming JN keeps producing more SSNs from now on we could somewhat realistically expect ~5 boats (?) per year for this 5YP with production likely increasing a bit for the next 5YP when 09X/09V becomes more mature.

According to current data PLAN has to date launched 11 09IIIBs, 1 09V, 1 09X and 1 Huludao mystery submarine which adds up to 14 "proper" SSNs total, USN as of right now has 49 SSNs total which includes 3 Seawolf, 22 774 and 24 688i. IMO USN SSN number is likely to drop to the low 40s during the 2030s due to aging 688is needing to be replaced while 774 production rate is too slow to replace boat by boat. Anyhow at current production rate (5 boats per year) it is possible for PLAN to reach a similar number in around 6 years, so maybe USN supremacy is coming to an end far sooner than most expects?
 

00CuriousObserver

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this is a good article out of India actually. It showcases a lot of satellite photos of JN shipyard and the new FAH/Final Assembly Hall for submarine construction at JN.

It has two set of tracks in there. and based on the dimension of FAH, I'd think you can build 4 submarines at the same time in there. The number of launches per year would depend on how quickly and how much work need to be done in FAH. At least to start off, I wouldn't expect more than 2 launches per year.

I would ignore the stuff on the bottom, which I think are just wrong assessment.

He is the one who wrote this two years ago

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tphuang

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This is pretty interesting, perhaps it is now possible or even realistic for PLAN to catch up to USN in SSN numbers by the early 2030s. AFAIK combined Chinese production capability of SSN could theoretically reach ~8 boats per year (6x in Bohai and 2x at JN). Though I doubt that this rate would be reached anytime soon, assuming JN keeps producing more SSNs from now on we could somewhat realistically expect ~5 boats (?) per year for this 5YP with production likely increasing a bit for the next 5YP when 09X/09V becomes more mature.

According to current data PLAN has to date launched 11 09IIIBs, 1 09V, 1 09X and 1 Huludao mystery submarine which adds up to 14 "proper" SSNs total, USN as of right now has 49 SSNs total which includes 3 Seawolf, 22 774 and 24 688i. IMO USN SSN number is likely to drop to the low 40s during the 2030s due to aging 688is needing to be replaced while 774 production rate is too slow to replace boat by boat. Anyhow at current production rate (5 boats per year) it is possible for PLAN to reach a similar number in around 6 years, so maybe USN supremacy is coming to an end far sooner than most expects?
PLAN doesn't really need to reach parity is absolute numbers actually.

It has newer boats which should have higher availability than USN's older boats. I think USN is around 30% in repair shops.

It also only has to be concerned with 1 region whereas USN boats are spread globally.

also, PLAN boats would be protected by escorts & MPAs, so at least they are not covered by adversarial MPAs & subs the moment they try to cross SOSUS.

So, I don't want to give an absolute number, but I think PLAN can reach a quantity and quality by 2030 where the underwater dynamic is completely changed.
 
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