PLA New Gen Tanks (Type 100, new heavy MBT)

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
That’s always the risk with regression based analysis and predictions. Past trends are never guaranteed to always continue into the future. And one of the most often times when big paradigm shifts occur to totally throw off past trend lines is at times if inflection. The Type100 and this new design represents uncharted waters for the PLA, where for the first time in its history it’s not the one playing catch up to the world.


Which neatly brings us up to one of the fundamental challenges the PLA would have faced in this contest as de facto world leader - just what are the requirements and CONOPs of future armoured warfare? It no longer has the luxury of being able to copy everyone else’s homework in terms of detailed performance requirements and instead needed to also work out what the grand vision of how future armoured warfare should work.

If you do not have a clear and well defined vision of what future armoured combat might look like, the obvious solution is to pose that question to the field in the first instance and see what the troops and market comes back with. A truly blank sheet design again reminiscent of how the PLAAF 6th gen development was rumoured to have went.



I guess this shows the fundamental difference in how we view the PLAAF 6th gen competition. While you seem to think the PLAAF went to both SAC and CAC with separate, radically different yet fully detailed design specifications to meet predetermined CONOPs, I think the PLAAF started with a far more open scope of asking both teams how they think future air combat will evolve and produce a design to dominate in that envisaged future combat doctrine.

The wildly divergent weight class and intended performance priorities are from underlying philosophical differences in how the two teams expect future air combat is expected to evolve instead of them being aimed at different niches in a well defined combat environment.

That in turn was why CAC was so ecstatic about the the outcome of the May 7th air battle, as it validated their overall vision, which was far more important and consequential than just the J10 proving its own intrinsic capabilities.



I think this is a common problem people have with China watching in general where they mistake discipline for a lack of ability, ambition and vision, with a hint of the old classic trope of China being a hyper-controlled state where decisions always flow top-down.

Modern China would not exist as it is today if that was the case.

Also, this fundamental different philosophy is not as unprecedented as you seem to think. Just look at the Chinese UAV industry as an example of the frankly bewildering diversity and often apparent significant overlaps between various designs.

As with the UAV industry, China owns the overwhelming majority of the high value capital stocks of development and production of tanks and armoured vehicles, so it can make those capital stocks available to promising private sector pitches to make sure barriers to entry do not allow the market to stagnate. How else do you think they managed to get so much innovation from just one proper tank making factory in the whole country?

Another common mistake to make is in thinking all procurement processes work the same way for the PLA. There will be procurements where the PLA knows exactly what it was and will issue detailed design specs that need to be met, and in such cases they generally want that need met ASAP, which is the kind of tenders we are most exposed to. But there will also be other, more open (both in terms of timeframe and design specifications) routes where a particularly interesting and/or promising design and/or designer emerges from the frankly ridiculous number of competitions and contests that takes place annually in China, and resources are made available to see what might come if it. Often, the most interesting and revolutionary designs comes out of this second route, and these also tend to be the ones most kept under wraps by the PLA.

In theory it's not "impossible" that the PLA has departed from the usual way in which most military forces (including leading military forces today) carry out developments of projects, and I'm fairly open minded about the PLA being able to surprise us with either new methods of doing things or pushing technological boundaries that we previously didn't expect for them.

But the idea of the PLA fully funding competing CONOPs and products intended to operate within CONOPs would be not only a more inefficient and risky way of doing project development --- but more importantly it also doesn't provide a more convincing or explanatory answer than "they are intended to be complementary from the outset" to both Type 100 and the heavier MBT existing (or J-36 and J-XDS both existing).


I suppose if we had some sort of grapevine rumours suggesting that Type 100 and the heavier MBT were a result of being competitors at the CONOPs level (or J-36 and J-XDS being competitors at the CONOPs level) then we would have reason to seriously consider such a prospect and greatly re-evaluate the way that the PLA has chosen to develop these big ticket items.

But as it stands, the most straight forward and logical answer to me is "they were intended to be complementary in the same unified CONOPs to begin with". It is the most reasonable null hypothesis, and we'd need a fair bit of corroborating indicators to seriously consider overturning it imo.


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The wide variety of PRC UAV designs is actually a great example of why it is irrelevant to the Type 100 and heavy MBT (or J-36 and J-XDS) relationship, because the vast majority of PRC UAV designs are company/institute led efforts rather than projects being commissioned by the PLA at the outset, with many aiming for export customers. Same goes for the wide variety of PRC AFVs (including MBTs) and ground systems which are aimed for export. Of course, sometimes certain industry led projects or export oriented projects find themselves procured for PLA use, but that is typically within the bounds of an established PLA CONOPs or system of systems or doctrine.
And sometimes there are new types of systems (like high end UAVs/UCAVs) where the PLA will buy some to evaluate which types are best suited for their requirements as part of the CONOPs refining process (such as the many CCA types we've seen that we know are in IOT&E, of which most may end up in service but some may end up being discarded).


In the case of Type 100 and this heavy MBT (as well as J-36 and J-XDS), to our knowledge are not industry led efforts, but are genuine article PLA led projects, for a PLA requirement that should already have had a CONOPs well defined before embarking on the very expensive process of developing a couple of new generation medium and heavy MBTs (or a couple of new generation heavy tactical fighter aircraft).
And if we want to entertain the idea of them being a reflection of original competing CONOPs that have led to competing prototypes as well... then I think we need some indicators/rumours to suggest it first.
 

4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
Type 15 will likely be confined to the western plains only in the future. PLA is allegedly not quite happy with its thin armor, while it is acceptable on the high plains due to extreme conditions and it's unique feature making them unreplaceable, it is not down south. It is likely Type-100 will replace them in STC along with the remaining Type-96s.
That may be the case, but if mobility is a real issue in the expected terrain it can come down to the difference between a less than ideal tank and no tank at all. Obviously, if the Type 100 can perform well in the Southern Theater, the PLA will use them instead, but its suitablility remains to be seen.

Keep in mind the Type 100 is a hybrid drivetrain so altitude may not affect its propulsion performance. They might also be able to strip down weight if terrain is an issue.
This, I'm more skeptical about. In the extreme terrain of the Tibetan Plateau, every extra ton of weight imposes a penalty, and mobility is simply way more important than any other factor. Even if the Type 15 is seen as inadequate, it'll be replaced by a specialized vehicle built for purpose rather than pushing a standard vehicle into the role. Having a hybrid system makes up for a bit of this, but it's unlikely to be enough.
 

alanch90

Junior Member
Registered Member
What's the possibility that it has longer 125mm like Armata's 2A82-1M L/56?
Barrel length is so much less important than its compatibility with higher powered propellant. The latter chance is very high since we´ve had patents regarding what is very likely Type 100´s 105mm achieving muzzle energy levels comparable to current 120mm, so that same technology can be upscaled to 125mm.
 

Tomboy

Captain
Registered Member
Barrel length is so much less important than its compatibility with higher powered propellant. The latter chance is very high since we´ve had patents regarding what is very likely Type 100´s 105mm achieving muzzle energy levels comparable to current 120mm, so that same technology can be upscaled to 125mm.
Chamber pressure and volume is arguably much more important than caliber, but if you are going with a completely new breach design with larger chamber which already means you are probably forgoing backward compatibility anyways, might as well go with a larger caliber to future proof assuming it does not significantly compromise the design.
 

Tomboy

Captain
Registered Member
joke.jpg
This person claims that the new tank is in the 40t weight class but given the fiasco a few months back where he was vagueposting about something huge was gonna happen and literally nothing happened before resorting to the claim that the "Higher ups didn't want to publicize it".

So probably give this claim a huge pile of salt.
 

wssth0306

Junior Member
Registered Member
Fundenmentally the CONOP for the next gen frontline directfire platrom is the least answered and the most critial in understanding of this new tank , I for one want to see PLA take on this problem , the frontline is going to be more lethal not less ,kill chains has rapidly shrinked from minutes to seconds , and moving in a direction of kill net with any sensors and any affectors in the following decads.
That bring the question how do one survive and fight in this condition ,and that a bigger doctrin question then just this new tank.
Fundenmentally what allowed for breakthough and ground maneuvers (the post WW2 Mechanization paradigm) was local fire superiority through surprise , and then rapid exploitation by mechanization.In a bigger theater view the whole point of manruver warfare was effiency of killing the enemy by hitting him from a direction he wasn't expect to be hit, a good encirclement would allow you to eliminate Divisions in few days, instead grinding the enemy on a front for weeks.
Warfare has this tendency that the swings between lethality to maneuverability and back every so often though history,we just happen to reach a new chapter where you lethality >> maneuverability.
1-You can't acchive surprise cause there just to many sensors that sees your troops,troops will be killed before local fire superiority can be achived.
2-You can't expolit break though even you have one, supply lines will be cut by enemy firpower before movment can happen.

Every time this balance swings ,warfare changes completely,from that stand point I would guess that the PLA (or any other army for that matter) are trying to seek to bring menuver warfare back , what I am not sure about is how a 60+ ton tracked platfrom is trying to solve these problems or how it fit in the solution.
so we will just have to wait to see this thing fully before a meaningful speculation can be made, cause it is all in context of the whole force structure, It could be highly conservertive upgrade or a full spectrom rethink .
 

alanch90

Junior Member
Registered Member
Chamber pressure and volume is arguably much more important than caliber, but if you are going with a completely new breach design with larger chamber which already means you are probably forgoing backward compatibility anyways, might as well go with a larger caliber to future proof assuming it does not significantly compromise the design.
If you are using an already in service caliber, then changing chamber geometry its not a good choice. Incresed muzzle velocity is only relevant for KE amunition, the utility of which in actual warfare -compared to HE- has been enourmously overrated for the past decades. So if a new 125mm tank needed completly new and incompatible HE ammunition with older 125mm, then its a huge fail in regards to efficiency and logistics. Hence, if you want to keep the caliber, keep also the chamber geometry while at the same time increasing the pressure tolerances. Like Russians did with the 2A82 gun.

View attachment 175793
This person claims that the new tank is in the 40t weight class but given the fiasco a few months back where he was vagueposting about something huge was gonna happen and literally nothing happened before resorting to the claim that the "Higher ups didn't want to publicize it".

So probably give this claim a huge pile of salt.
By "new tank" he may be refering to 2 different things:
- The 6 wheeled Type 100, which has a base weight of 30 tons and may get up to 40 tonnes with its full armor kit.
- The 7 wheeled "heavy Type 100" may have a base weight (without armor addons) in the 40 tonne class.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Fundenmentally the CONOP for the next gen frontline directfire platrom is the least answered and the most critial in understanding of this new tank , I for one want to see PLA take on this problem , the frontline is going to be more lethal not less ,kill chains has rapidly shrinked from minutes to seconds , and moving in a direction of kill net with any sensors and any affectors in the following decads.
That bring the question how do one survive and fight in this condition ,and that a bigger doctrin question then just this new tank.
Fundenmentally what allowed for breakthough and ground maneuvers (the post WW2 Mechanization paradigm) was local fire superiority through surprise , and then rapid exploitation by mechanization.In a bigger theater view the whole point of manruver warfare was effiency of killing the enemy by hitting him from a direction he wasn't expect to be hit, a good encirclement would allow you to eliminate Divisions in few days, instead grinding the enemy on a front for weeks.
Warfare has this tendency that the swings between lethality to maneuverability and back every so often though history,we just happen to reach a new chapter where you lethality >> maneuverability.
1-You can't acchive surprise cause there just to many sensors that sees your troops,troops will be killed before local fire superiority can be achived.
2-You can't expolit break though even you have one, supply lines will be cut by enemy firpower before movment can happen.

Every time this balance swings ,warfare changes completely,from that stand point I would guess that the PLA (or any other army for that matter) are trying to seek to bring menuver warfare back , what I am not sure about is how a 60+ ton tracked platfrom is trying to solve these problems or how it fit in the solution.
so we will just have to wait to see this thing fully before a meaningful speculation can be made, cause it is all in context of the whole force structure, It could be highly conservertive upgrade or a full spectrom rethink .
Maneuver tactics are easier when you also have a support fire advantage. Big guns hurt maneuver though, and support fire advantage employed at the frontline also needs to be well armored while preserving good mobility. Ergo, develop two complementary designs. This decision was probably facilitated by armor and weapons improvements allowing for a Type 100 sized tank to have comparable anti tank capabilities as the larger Type 99 series, but smaller caliber will always be less blast damage and lower weight will always mean less armor.
 
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