Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

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defenceman

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hi,
the irony of loosing Rafale in IAF is, through the govt channels they not even confirming
or acknowledged even loosing BS001 though the tail was visibly on the ground not on
base, because of some diplomatic pressure through friend & Foe on Pakistan ( including Qatar,
UAE and of cource some from directly on indirect from France) Pakistan is not releasing the
satellite images which been given to them from China and everyone knows Chinese have loads
of satellites around in that night on India & Pakistan, even in 2019 balakot incident there wasn’t
any F16 loss which even been confirmed by USA govt channels and F16 net but Indians were
adamant to shooting PAF F16 govt of pakistan even offered international defence organisation
journalist to come to Pakistan to see a line up of all F16 vice versa indian do the same for Su30MKI
this time even defence minister of pakistan repeating the same we will line up F16 & J10, if you line up
Rafales 36 in numbers for us by international defence analyst
thank you
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
PAF was apparently instructed to target Rafales more so than other aircraft. India confirmed to have lost a Mig-29, Su-30MKI and a Mirage 2000. Only 1 Rafale loss would be counter-intuitive if PAF specifically targeted Rafales and there were more Rafales in the air than Mig-29, Su-30MKI or Mirages.

We have two Rafale videos + photos showing possibly separate Rafale shoot downs. One where the recordings and photos were done during daytime and one that is just a video recording that is attributed to the Bathinda Rafale. They could be of the same Rafale but Pakistan officially claims 6 IAF fighters shot down by PAF. Also welcoming third party counts of both sides if India is willing. Since it's no secret India had 36 Rafales, they aren't giving any intel away by allowing a Rafale count.

We know at least 1 Rafale was certainly shot down. Credible claims range from 1 to up to 4 Rafales shot down. Less credible claims go nuts with the number but we're not going to consider those.

Who actually knows? India of course, France, Pakistan may have a decent idea but they're number would no doubt be high. China might too with all the ISR overhead in space.
 
Maikeru

Maikeru

Colonel
Registered Member
Trump claims 7 shootdowns and 1 badly damaged, although he has never said whose planes they were. PAF added a 4th Rafale claim some weeks later.

India has never admitted anything further than 'there are always losses in combat' and then came out with a ludicrous claim of 15 PAF aircraft downed by SAMs or destroyed on ground 6 months after the fighting ended, with no proof whatsoever.
 
Z

zzw001

Just Hatched
Registered Member
mossen said:
This is the billion dollar question.

We know that SAFRAN has already been toying with prototypes of a boosted m88 engine. France has not done a clean-slate engine design for fighter jets for many years now. The French arrogance destroyed the FCAS project they had with the Germans. The French have very high opinions of themselves.

Somehow Indians think they will be given better treatment than Germans, who are after all France's most consequential ally. I think the most likely outcome is a boosted m88 with minimal tech transfer.

I don't think SAFRAN has the in-house capability for a clean slate 120 kN engine, and especially not in the timeframe we're discussing here. It's just a fantasy. The Indians are in for a rude awakening.
Click to expand...
Is M88 really a clean slate design? I always saw it more as an F404 with higher twr (but similar thrust) by increasing turbine temporature at the cost of fuel economics / engine life. Solidly 0.5 gen behind F414 and a whole gen behind the EJ200 technologically. As a result, M88 has the lowest twr (on lower total thrust) despite using a lot more composite materials than F414 / EJ200.

If we don't count M88 as a clean slate design then the last clean slate turbofan from Safran / Snecma was the single spool M53 comparable to 60's US tech (they also handled SaM146's hot section but word on the street was that it was a derivative of the M88 which ultimately derives from the F101; their performance was also inferior to the 100% Russian PD-8; don't think Russia could come up with a better alternative for the SSJ so easily and quickly if they partnered with GE/PW/RR for SaM146).
 
sequ

sequ

Colonel
Registered Member
zzw001 said:
Is M88 really a clean slate design? I always saw it more as an F404 with higher twr (but similar thrust) by increasing turbine temporature at the cost of fuel economics / engine life. Solidly 0.5 gen behind F414 and a whole gen behind the EJ200 technologically. As a result, M88 has the lowest twr (on lower total thrust) despite using a lot more composite materials than F414 / EJ200.

If we don't count M88 as a clean slate design then the last clean slate turbofan from Safran / Snecma was the single spool M53 comparable to 60's US tech (they also handled SaM146's hot section but word on the street was that it was a derivative of the M88 which ultimately derives from the F101; their performance was also inferior to the 100% Russian PD-8; don't think Russia could come up with a better alternative for the SSJ so easily and quickly if they partnered with GE/PW/RR for SaM146).
Click to expand...
M88 is between F404 and EJ200 in terms of tech. It's TWR is 8.5 vs 9 for EJ200 and 7.75-8 for F404 depending on variant.
 
Gloire_bb

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
_killuminati_ said:
Weren't you here following the daily updates on the war thread? 3 rafales went down in 3 different locations, caught on video footage from multiple angles.
Click to expand...
I did, but we have/conclusive(very clear visual) / Rafale proof on one bird. Rest is subject to interpretations.
I.e. I don't say more weren't shot down, we just still don't have proper visual evidence, and had one immediately.

Tracking modern conflicts, usually it's best to rely on that; based on Ukraine tracking (which has by far more disciplined population and years to suppress dudes with phones), majority still gets footage from locals.
On the other hand, almost in all cases (almost is important though), claim is far above actual results. Overall, India is many things, but a competent digital gulag with well drilled population, it just isn't.

And finally, I do indeed find rather unlikely India would jump "all in" into Rafales under rather draconian deal if they lost 10% of the force to jets bought on spare cash.
Buying compromised jets makes sense only if it's immediate delivery during war or similar situation.
 
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