Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

[ougoah]

The whole idea of Europe mastering "harder to target" is a laughable one, built on Saab salesman drivel and SPECTRA claims about integrated EW suites somehow negating 5th gen stealth (broad observability and emissions) advantages and reducing the calculus down to cost and attrition, as if somehow Chinese 5th gen fighters aren't already much cheaper than European 4.5 gen fighters (and also built at many times the rate).

They also assume Chinese and American 4.5 and 5th gen fighters don't have equal or superior EW technologies available.

No matter how they want to BS everyone about integrated EW suites and tugging decoy targets behind them, the fact remains that American and Chinese 4.5 gen fighters are every bit as capable (if not more so) than European ones and Europeans do not have their own 5th gen fighters. Therefore, Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen simply cannot match 5th gen fighters. All their marketing claims about how Gripen is a great alternative to F-35 is laughable and quite revealing of just how stupid Europeans can also be.

Contrary to that Indian "expert" claim, Chinese and American fighters are the ones that have mastered harder to see and harder to target (actually still a tautology for now) and Europe simply has not.

Comparing the Rafale to J-20 in 2026 is like comparing the J-10A to F-22 in 2006. No sensible nation or organisation would believe the former could hold any threat in any form to the latter. Clearly these paid Indian shills are not sensible. Even their own Jai Hinds aren't as enthused about it either.

 

[siegecrossbow]

"There are two different philosophies of modern air dominance and survivability: being difficult to see or being harder to target. The US (Lockheed Martin) and China have chosen the first. Europe has mastered the second."

Man, I wonder what the fuss regarding Tempest/GCAP/FCAS/AMCA is all about...

The cope is because they don’t have stealth and won’t be able to acquire it within two decades. Once they have it they’d be singing a different tune.

 

[ougoah]

The cope is because they don’t have stealth and won’t be able to acquire it within two decades. Once they have it they’d be singing a different tune.

And programs like Tempest, GCAP and FCAS were originally scoped to produce 5th gen fighters for various partner nations (mostly European). Now that 6th gen is all the rage, they are rebranding these to be 5.5 gens at the minimum but you can bet your last dollar that the latest J-20 and J-35 blocks will be far superior to these fighters when they become available, if they ever become available.

Europe does not have the industry or money to create supersonic tailless fighters like J-36 and J-XDS. Europe if it were on an upward trajectory like it enjoyed in the past would be able to but it isn't the 18th century or even the 1970s anymore. The level of sustained effort and funding to create actual 5th gens I don't even think is there, let alone 6th gens. They will keep producing studies and plans for the next 10 years on these programs but never really set themselves to it unless Russia comes out with some real threat. There just isn't a need for Europe to militarise in the same way US and China have. Europeans have many, many other problems. Creating a 5th gen fighter just isn't truly an important enough one.

People also have no clue how hard it is to create all the subsystems for a 5th gen fighter. Modern stealth depends on metamaterials, a technology that many talk about but is truly only in the hands of US and China. None other. Turkey brags and talks all day long and produces Kaan which clearly does not make use of metamaterial surface. You can't just use materials that allow radar to pass through, it'll simply reflect all the equipment beneath the skin. This technology is a black magic and quite unlikely the US or China would allow it to leak to capable hands (Europe) in fear of opening the door for competition and potentially being overtaken. Korea's KF-x also doesn't have that metamaterial sheen. Neither of them can afford to devote entire armies of engineers, decades and blank cheques to catch up on this field. How many countries have the size of talent pool required, institutions and labs and the funding for these sorts of ventures and then be able to justify it? Honestly only the two superpowers.

Outside of Europe's best attempt at a "5th gen" fighter, Su-57 (lol yes yes Russia I'm considering as European here, certainly more so than China or USA), China will field 6th gen fighters before Europe fields a single European complete 5th gen.

In the meantime, Europe can keep saying Gripen is comparable to F-35 and SPECTRA is a magic button that makes Rafale invisible to everything. The world can keep underestimating Chinese and believe they are hopeless and stole everything, ignoring their own failed attempts to steal and copy and failures to master knowledge while China actually masters technologies and moves to the leading edge. It's already happened to basically every single field in science and technology already and complete with world first and world leading now. They can continue in that manner, it only serves China and holds themselves back. This is quite literally the mechanism for shifting fortunes and power centre.

 

[GulfLander]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2022902012539736559

 

[Gloire_bb]

They also assume Chinese and American 4.5 and 5th gen fighters don't have equal or superior EW technologies available.

Well, their oboard/integral (important) suites are objectively more compact.

Realistically the reading of these orders is (1)India can't afford to wait HAL anymore (both land and naval orders are huge hits against HAL specifically...add AMCA loss on top), and (2)China is effectively abandoned as a conventional goal.

India doesn't even aim to be able to contain PLAAF anymore, only PAF. Maybe later if/when they'll try mixing Su-57E/Su-30MKI, but this is later, and current 40 bil order does nothing in this direction.

Maybe it's a good sign - Indian agressive stance v China only made sense in a broader US-led alliance. If this is what US managed to screw up over last years, that's one hell of a long term reversal.

Though to be fair - maybe that's just too much me trying to read something that just isn't here. B/c same deal 12 years ago would absolutely be an anti-China move. Now hower? That's effectively a revocation of hostility. India speed.

 

[Clango]

They did a whole program on it yesterday - Rafale wins against J20 due to supposedly superior avionics and SPECTRA lol

I thought the PL-15 literally didn't give a single fuck about SPECTRA and eviscerated the rafale anyway

 

[Gloire_bb]

I thought the PL-15 literally didn't give a single fuck about SPECTRA and eviscerated the rafale anyway

We don't know. We only know that Rafale(1 confirmed) was lost from a long rage shot, apparently longer than what Indians considered possible.

Given that Pakistani side thought it shot at leaast 3 - maybe by all accounts all strike package should've been lost, and yet they only lost 1 aircraft - and even it almost managed to limp to home base.

There's celebration of a well earned victory. Going beyond that is not professional. For better or worse, >half a year after the conflict, after not insignificant public pressure from opposition and bad optics for Modhi personally, IAF(and IN) decided they want to go full commitment.
Indians, like most countries, do deny reality when they don't like it(Balakot), but 40 bil denial is a bit too much.

 

[PiSigma]

We don't know. We only know that Rafale(1 confirmed) was lost from a long rage shot, apparently longer than what Indians considered possible.

Given that Pakistani side thought it shot at leaast 3 - maybe by all accounts all strike package should've been lost, and yet they only lost 1 aircraft - and even it almost managed to limp to home base.

There's celebration of a well earned victory. Going beyond that is not professional. For better or worse, >half a year after the conflict, after not insignificant public pressure from opposition and bad optics for Modhi personally, IAF(and IN) decided they want to go full commitment.
Indians, like most countries, do deny reality when they don't like it(Balakot), but 40 bil denial is a bit too much.

Let's not repeat Indian propaganda here. 3 Rafael's were lost. Who knows if they had spectra on. Either way, seems like Indians believed the vendor brochure a little too much.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Let's not repeat Indian propaganda here. 3 Rafael's were lost. Who knows if they had spectra on. Either way, seems like Indians believed the vendor brochure a little too much.

Source is believe me or ghost of Kyiv?
We've seen remains of several jets, of which 1 is Rafale. More Rafales is speculative.
Will be more - will be more.

 

[PiSigma]

Source is believe me or ghost of Kyiv?
We've seen remains of several jets, of which 1 is Rafale. More Rafales is speculative.
Will be more - will be more.

Everyone I follow that are pretty credible are still saying 6 jets lost for India, out of which 3 are Rafael's. India haven't released any proof like a photo of all of their Rafael's in a roll to prove them wrong. When they lie so much about losses, until a photo is released can't trust anything they say.