PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

GZDRefugee

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wasn't talking about a Taiwan conflict specifically. Sure, if the victory condition for both countries is control of Taiwan, the U.S. loses every day of the week that ends 'day'. But I think we both know that any U.S. Sino conflict, including one that involves Taiwan as a trigger, will have the objective ultimately be destroying the capacity of the opponent to engage in further geopolitical competition for a certain arbitrary number of years.
This is accurate. Taiwan is a sideshow to the real geopolitics. The conflict of interests between China and the US is actually fairly simple: the US will not tolerate the existence of a regional power in the Indo-Pacific and China will not tolerate containment of any kind.

I will however say that scope of strategic goals differ. China wants regional dominance while the US wants to maintain global dominance. The American goal of maintaining broad spectrum dominance over everyone, everywhere, forever is fundamentally impossible from a mathematics perspective.
 

PLAwatcher12

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is not a flagship thread, and you have a moderator just tell you that you would be warned before you are banned again.

Please answer my question:
a.) What do you consider is "winning" for the U.S.
b.) How will the U.S. win.

And you should also think WHY you hold the view that the U.S. will win.
Ok, well I consider winning achieving your objectives, for example the US objectives will be to keep Taiwan under their influence. And I didn’t say the US will win I said it’s more of a possibility, the reason why I say that is because China is still playing catch up in some areas. I didn’t say the US would win I said could.
LMFAO @PLAwatcher12 went from:
"if the US decides to go to war with China they could absolutely win" to

"I just said if war happened today the US has more of a possibility of winning" to

"I don’t think I ever said the US would win"
none of what I said is wrong to my original point. Could absolutely win, and could to I never said they would are the same. Could absolutely win doesn’t mean they will

I don’t get why people here are acting like the US is some weak power while China is super strong. Both are strong powers, it’s wrong to think China would win.

and to clarify myself by could absolutely win, I mean the US has a higher chance to than it would in 2027
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Exactly. The current US administration does not inspire confidence when it comes to rational thought. For all we know, the Annoying Orange will initiate nuclear war to pump and dump the stock market.

You're right to be concerned about President Trump, but what is most worrying about him isn't his rapacity, at this point. A coherent Trump wouldn't start a nuclear war because he sees himself as a winner, if not "the winner," and he appears wise or at least seasoned enough to know that there are no winners in a MAD scenario.

Problem is Trump's mental faculties have visibly declined in the last few years, and will continue to diminish. Everyone will get old — unless they die young — so this isn't a slight against our illustrious leader. However, it is a problem in practice as it'll hamper Trump's ability to rein in less cautious, yet more ambitious subordinates.

Some of
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; likewise
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, but have been quieter about such prospects in recent years; and that's on top of
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.

Of these states, South Korea is most likely to acquire nuclear weapons in the short or medium term, since their cousins up north got some already, and it could make for a very, very slippery slope in terms of downstream regional, if not global effects.

The
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, and if 赖清德 and his DPP cohorts feel cornered, reckless and/or are otherwise even dumber than they look, there's a not unreasonable chance the authorities in Taipei will try again.

Should the DPP leadership move towards nuclearization, the authorities in Beijing may have no choice but to direct the PLA to seize control of Taiwan by force immediately.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Should the DPP leadership move towards nuclearization, the authorities in Beijing may have no choice but to direct the PLA to seize control of Taiwan by force immediately.

Taiwan is too compromised (by both China and the USA) to secretly develop a nuclear capability overnight.

So such a nuclear programme will be shut down early, and likely won't require an actual Chinese military action.
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Taiwan is too compromised (by both China and the USA) to secretly develop a nuclear capability overnight.

So such a nuclear programme will be shut down early, and likely won't require an actual Chinese military action.

At the current juncture, the US may not feel as incentivized to restrain nuclear proliferation on the island of Taiwan as they did in the 1980s.

In fact — from a realpolitik standpoint — a reasonably strong argument can be made that it's in Pax Americana's best interest to quietly encourage or even enable such an outcome in order to trigger a hot war aimed to delay, or from their inevitably ambitious perspective, to derail the rise of Pax Sinica.

The island of Taiwan would be sacrificed at the altar of Freedom and Democracy™ as Uncle Sam watches from the sidelines, and it won't be pretty for the local population or economy. Such a scenario sounds unimaginable to most, yet we all know Washington won't "give two fucks" about what happens to the island of Taiwan, if
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.

Fortunately, it is fairly unlikely any individual or grouping — with that sort of vision and acumen for grand strategy in the current administration — got the pull to both resource and realize such a scenario.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
At the current juncture, the US may not feel as incentivized to restrain nuclear proliferation on the island of Taiwan as they did in the 1980s.

In fact — from a realpolitik standpoint — a reasonably strong argument can be made that it's in Pax Americana's best interest to quietly encourage or even enable such an outcome in order to trigger a hot war aimed to delay, or from their inevitably ambitious perspective, to derail the rise of Pax Sinica.

The island of Taiwan would be sacrificed at the altar of Freedom and Democracy™ as Uncle Sam watches from the sidelines, and it won't be pretty for the local population or economy. Such a scenario sounds unimaginable to most, yet we all know Washington won't "give two fucks" about what happens to the island of Taiwan, if
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.

Fortunately, it is fairly unlikely any individual or grouping — with that sort of vision and acumen for grand strategy in the current administration — got the pull to both resource and realize such a scenario.

Then China conducts a limited pre-emptive strike on Taiwan's developing nuclear programme, and dares Taiwan or the US to respond?

Note that the US and Israel have just done this to Iran's nuclear programme.
And Iran is actually recognised as a sovereign country, whereas almost no-one (including the USA) recognises Taiwan as a country.

---

Or perhaps it does trigger a full-scale war and invasion?

Unless the US intervenes, Taiwan is lost.

Remember that Taiwan does make 90% of the world's most advanced semiconductors, which are mostly designed and sold by American companies. So either Taiwan's semiconductor capacity is destroyed or falls in the hands of Mainland China.

We can also expect the end of Pax Americana in the rest of the Western Pacific (aka. South Korea, Japan, Philippines, etc)

80% of all semiconductors in the world are made in China, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan.

---

Rationally speaking, trying to use Taiwan to bleed China, with the USA remaining neutral, is not going to work.

It just means the end of Pax Americana
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Ok, well I consider winning achieving your objectives, for example the US objectives will be to keep Taiwan under their influence. And I didn’t say the US will win I said it’s more of a possibility, the reason why I say that is because China is still playing catch up in some areas. I didn’t say the US would win I said could.

none of what I said is wrong to my original point. Could absolutely win, and could to I never said they would are the same. Could absolutely win doesn’t mean they will
LOL You're escaping into word games now. "America could absolutely win," should be interpreted in the same vein as, "The patient can absolutely walk again; I've seen it happen more than once in my career. I definitely didn't say they would, it's more of a possibility."
I don’t get why people here are acting like the US is some weak power while China is super strong. Both are strong powers,
All you said was that the US has these things and we laid out how China plans to take care of all of them. Nobody's a weak power; weak powers don't have a seat at this game table, but Chinas military was purposefully built to defeat the US in Asia (which Hegseth acknowledged) while America's was built to suppress weak powers around the world. That means that China has the right tools but the US does not.
it’s wrong to think China would win.
Could, would, what word games are you playing now? We think that China's chances are much higher than America's around the ROC.
and to clarify myself by could absolutely win, I mean the US has a higher chance to than it would in 2027
That's the only part of what you said that makes sense.
 

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Then China conducts a limited pre-emptive strike on Taiwan's developing nuclear programme, and dares Taiwan or the US to respond?

If both Pyongyang and Beijing possess nuclear weapons — the latter equipped with a far more sizeable, deliverable and capable stockpile than the former — then there's little, if any reason for Washington to be open to nuclearization for Seoul, but not for Taipei, at least in principal.

At this juncture, the US is reasonably cognizant that it will struggle to compete against China militarily — even if it somehow fully forsakes its security commitments in Europe and the Middle East — given where American economic output, in particular industrial capacity, stands vis-a-vis China.

Knowing that they can't contain the rise of Pax Sinica by themselves, the current US administration is aggressively seeking to strongarm allies, vassals or whatever you want to call countries like Japan, Australia, and so on and so forth into preoccupying and containing, and should the day come, waging war upon China:


Likewise, the US has and intends to further employ the regime in Taipei for identical purposes. Depending on your perspective, the island of Taiwan in general and its armed forces in particular either represent Uncle Sam's default "tip of the spear," or the first wave of (would be) "cannon fodder" against the Chinese.

It's why DC wants Taipei to increase defense spending to 10% of GDP:


If Washington is willing to demand something this outrageous from the island's taxpayers, adding nuclear weapons to Taipei's arsenal and the broader geopolitical equation makes complete sense, so long as it can be "done right."

That's perhaps where we diverge most. I concur that it won't be easy whatsoever for the regime in Taipei to acquire an even somewhat credible nuclear capability without Beijing finding out "prematurely."

However, that does not mean they won't try if egged on by certain forces situated on the Beltway. That in itself — as in even a handful of deliverable devices — will open up a can of worms that even our Cantonese friends won't mistake for a delicacy.


Unless the US intervenes, Taiwan is lost.


Remember that Taiwan does make 90% of the world's most advanced semiconductors, which are mostly designed and sold by American companies. So either Taiwan's semiconductor capacity is destroyed or falls in the hands of Mainland China.

The US does not care if "Taiwan is lost," and have been preparing for such a scenario — including how it'll impact access to semiconductors —
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. There's a reason why Trump has been
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TSMC to
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.

Let's look towards Ukraine for a second.

Not looking to get sidetracked, nor am I here to categorically deny Kyiv's agency. However, regardless of the intentions of the actors in play, the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War is effectively and principally an attempt to preoccupy and weaken a resurgent Russia.

From Washington's perspective, Taipei can and will most likely be employed for identical purposes in order to contain "the pacing threat."

I can't speak for Kyiv, but it shouldn't surprise any of us that a not insignificant number of Ukrainians — including their
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— now regret Kiev's decision to denuclearize in the 1990s. This has not gone unnoticed in Taipei or Washington.

Note that the US and Israel have just done this to Iran's nuclear programme.
We can also expect the end of Pax Americana in the rest of the Western Pacific (aka. South Korea, Japan, Philippines, etc)

The dominant thinking in Washington is that any sort of overt and kinetic aggression on the part of the PLA against targets situated on the island of Taiwan will push Seoul, Tokyo and Manila toward Washington.

Rationally speaking, trying to use Taiwan to bleed China, with the USA remaining neutral, is not going to work

There are individual actors within the current administration who are reasonably rational. Though more broadly speaking, I would strongly caution against making positive assumptions about the collective rationality of the administration.

Moreover, it isn't just a lack of rationality, but an inability to manage tradeoffs, never mind reasonably foresee second and third order effects.

You can't count on their rationality!

The sitting administration's track record speaks for itself. Just look at how Trump's tariff policies have harmed both the American economy, and alienated Washington's traditional allies, vassals or whatever your preferred framing for them happens to be.

It just means the end of Pax Americana

There are significant risks of escalation, if not Armageddon in play here — in fact those risks are exactly what I'm deeply concerned about — but besides a "Hail Mary," what else is there for Pax Americana to try to stop a rising Pax Sinica from supplanting it?
 

PLAwatcher12

Junior Member
Registered Member
LOL You're escaping into word games now. "America could absolutely win," should be interpreted in the same vein as, "The patient can absolutely walk again; I've seen it happen more than once in my career. I definitely didn't say they would, it's more of a possibility."

All you said was that the US has these things and we laid out how China plans to take care of all of them. Nobody's a weak power; weak powers don't have a seat at this game table, but Chinas military was purposefully built to defeat the US in Asia (which Hegseth acknowledged) while America's was built to suppress weak powers around the world. That means that China has the right tools but the US does not.

Could, would, what word games are you playing now? We think that China's chances are much higher than America's around the ROC.

That's the only part of what you said that makes sense.
I said the last part many many times, and could absolutely win means there is a chance, I don’t think we should be underestimating the US when it comes war capabilities, yes China has weapons to deal with US assets but those don’t guarantee anything, the US still has Japan, Philippines, Australia, etc, they have 11 aircraft carriers sure they might be only able to send 6 but that’s still 6 aircraft carriers, they have hundreds of 5th generation planes, stealth bombers, yes China has 5th generation planes too but not as much currently as the US does. And don’t take what hegseth says as fact, they say stuff so they can get more money and equipment.

We won’t know any of this unless war happens. I could be wrong and you could be wrung to but my opinion is that you and other people here seem to be underestimating the US capabilities, even if China did win a Taiwan war today it would be extremely costly for both sides. My overall point is today the US would more likely to win than in 2027 that’s a point I stated muptile times, and that people do seem to be underestimating the US
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I said the last part many many times, and could absolutely win means there is a chance,
I don’t think we should be underestimating the US when it comes war capabilities, yes China has weapons to deal with US assets but those don’t guarantee anything, the US still has Japan, Philippines, Australia, etc, they have 11 aircraft carriers sure they might be only able to send 6 but that’s still 6 aircraft carriers, they have hundreds of 5th generation planes, stealth bombers, yes China has 5th generation planes too but not as much currently as the US does. And don’t take what hegseth says as fact, they say stuff so they can get more money and equipment.
We won’t know any of this unless war happens. I could be wrong and you could be wrung to but my opinion is that you and other people here seem to be underestimating the US capabilities,
You stated that they had a better chance than China, which is why people are arguing. If you stated that there is a non-zero chance that the US could win, no one has any qualms with that. I have stated that China's chances are much better than America's.
even if China did win a Taiwan war today it would be extremely costly for both sides.
Not really. There is a high chance that China could do a fait accompli or create a cost of entry that is too high for anyone and no one would have a chance to do anything.
My overall point is today the US would more likely to win than in 2027 that’s a point I stated muptile times, and that people do seem to be underestimating the US
You don't have to say that even once; everybody knows that China is rising and America is declining in relation to each other. You only put this in here to sound reasonable when the actual argument is that we think that China's chances at victory are much higher than America's while you seemed to think the opposite.
 
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