00X/004 future nuclear CATOBAR carrier thread

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
IMO it's not a good idea for any weapons platform to be so big and expensive as to no longer be expendable. It's OT but I wonder if there are plans for mini-carriers, just one cat and one runway, carrying maybe 5-6 aircrafts. Then a CAG would be something like a mega carrier with long range bombers 500+kms behind with dozens of mini-carriers with multirole fighters spearheading and guarding the flanks.

In a blue-water naval battel, range is really important.

It looks like a number of hypersonic missiles are being developed with a range of 3000km, but most are going to be much shorter-ranged.

If your carrier-based aircraft can outrange the incoming missiles and hit the launch platforms (ships or aircraft), then the CSG won't face large numbers of incoming hypersonic missiles.

That argues for larger, longer-ranged carrier aircraft. And the more the better.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
IMO it's not a good idea for any weapons platform to be so big and expensive as to no longer be expendable. It's OT but I wonder if there are plans for mini-carriers, just one cat and one runway, carrying maybe 5-6 aircrafts. Then a CAG would be something like a mega carrier with long range bombers 500+kms behind with dozens of mini-carriers with multirole fighters spearheading and guarding the flanks.

No. That's an absurd misuse of finite manpower, money and resources.
 
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charles18

Junior Member
Registered Member
IMO it's not a good idea for any weapons platform to be so big and expensive as to no longer be expendable. It's OT but I wonder if there are plans for mini-carriers, just one cat and one runway, carrying maybe 5-6 aircrafts. ....
short answer: NO
Mini-carriers are Never going to happen.
but...
The US navy built 2 America class LHD's without well decks to accommodate larger aviation facilities.
Maybe China will do the same for its Type 076 ship.....build two ships with no well decks.

A 50,000 ton ship with a flat top, aircraft elevators, a hangar, a catapult, and arresting gear technically does Not count as a "mini-carrier" but I don't think you can really complain if you know what I'm getting at. ;)
 

ENTED64

Junior Member
Registered Member
IMO it's not a good idea for any weapons platform to be so big and expensive as to no longer be expendable. It's OT but I wonder if there are plans for mini-carriers, just one cat and one runway, carrying maybe 5-6 aircrafts. Then a CAG would be something like a mega carrier with long range bombers 500+kms behind with dozens of mini-carriers with multirole fighters spearheading and guarding the flanks.
I think it's pretty unlikely we will see very small carriers like what you describe because of the large fixed costs with operating carriers. A carrier carrying 6 aircraft would still be very expensive and require a lot of highly trained personnel to operate. Certainly on a per aircraft basis it would be several times more expensive to operate than a more typical carrier like those in service today. You can't simply say, "Well this carrier operates 1/6 the aircraft of the other carrier so it costs 1/6." This is to say nothing of how only having 6 aircraft would effectively prevent you from fielding special mission planes like EW and AEW aircraft. Would it be more expendable? Sure, a little, but it would still be quite expensive, I'm skeptical that it would be expendable enough.

It's difficult to say how vulnerable carriers really are. There's a lot of theoretical projections but until we actually have a hot war nobody really knows for sure how those theories translate into reality. Maybe carriers are actually very difficult to hit because the kill chain doesn't work as well in an actual hot war than in theory. Maybe carriers are sitting ducks and DF-21 sinks every last USN carrier before they so much as launch a plane. Nobody really knows but given that both USN and PLAN are building carriers it seems the consensus is that they're not useless sitting ducks. So assuming they are is perhaps a bit hasty.

Of course sometimes the military planners are wrong and things develop differently from expectations. Let's say that carriers really are extremely vulnerable. What then? Well most likely the answer would be to simply not have carriers, not build smaller more expendable carriers. After WW2 heavy battleships with thick armor went away, they weren't really replaced with smaller versions of themselves. What if air power turns out to be very important and you absolutely must have it? Even in that scenario I don't envision very small carriers being built, rather what will most likely happen is the defender will simply have an overwhelming advantage and attacks across long distances without nearby land bases just becomes impossible. At the end of the day I just don't think you can make the cost benefit of very small carriers to be worth it.
 

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
I think it's pretty unlikely we will see very small carriers like what you describe because of the large fixed costs with operating carriers. A carrier carrying 6 aircraft would still be very expensive and require a lot of highly trained personnel to operate. Certainly on a per aircraft basis it would be several times more expensive to operate than a more typical carrier like those in service today. You can't simply say, "Well this carrier operates 1/6 the aircraft of the other carrier so it costs 1/6." This is to say nothing of how only having 6 aircraft would effectively prevent you from fielding special mission planes like EW and AEW aircraft. Would it be more expendable? Sure, a little, but it would still be quite expensive, I'm skeptical that it would be expendable enough.

It's difficult to say how vulnerable carriers really are. There's a lot of theoretical projections but until we actually have a hot war nobody really knows for sure how those theories translate into reality. Maybe carriers are actually very difficult to hit because the kill chain doesn't work as well in an actual hot war than in theory. Maybe carriers are sitting ducks and DF-21 sinks every last USN carrier before they so much as launch a plane. Nobody really knows but given that both USN and PLAN are building carriers it seems the consensus is that they're not useless sitting ducks. So assuming they are is perhaps a bit hasty.

Of course sometimes the military planners are wrong and things develop differently from expectations. Let's say that carriers really are extremely vulnerable. What then? Well most likely the answer would be to simply not have carriers, not build smaller more expendable carriers. After WW2 heavy battleships with thick armor went away, they weren't really replaced with smaller versions of themselves. What if air power turns out to be very important and you absolutely must have it? Even in that scenario I don't envision very small carriers being built, rather what will most likely happen is the defender will simply have an overwhelming advantage and attacks across long distances without nearby land bases just becomes impossible. At the end of the day I just don't think you can make the cost benefit of very small carriers to be worth it.
Actually the answer to carrier vulnerability is to actually have even bigger carriers with even bigger planes with longer range. That way carriers are more safe from attacks. Another change will be to have more defenders and thus a bigger fleet
 

ENTED64

Junior Member
Registered Member
Actually the answer to carrier vulnerability is to actually have even bigger carriers with even bigger planes with longer range. That way carriers are more safe from attacks. Another change will be to have more defenders and thus a bigger fleet
I mean this is just a hypothetical so it's basically just guesswork. Maybe you'd see larger carriers, maybe missiles just outrange aircraft and you can't use carriers effectively, it's all kind of up in the air. My point was I just don't see a scenario where a lot of small carriers wins out.
 

dingyibvs

Senior Member
I think it's pretty unlikely we will see very small carriers like what you describe because of the large fixed costs with operating carriers. A carrier carrying 6 aircraft would still be very expensive and require a lot of highly trained personnel to operate. Certainly on a per aircraft basis it would be several times more expensive to operate than a more typical carrier like those in service today. You can't simply say, "Well this carrier operates 1/6 the aircraft of the other carrier so it costs 1/6." This is to say nothing of how only having 6 aircraft would effectively prevent you from fielding special mission planes like EW and AEW aircraft. Would it be more expendable? Sure, a little, but it would still be quite expensive, I'm skeptical that it would be expendable enough.

It's difficult to say how vulnerable carriers really are. There's a lot of theoretical projections but until we actually have a hot war nobody really knows for sure how those theories translate into reality. Maybe carriers are actually very difficult to hit because the kill chain doesn't work as well in an actual hot war than in theory. Maybe carriers are sitting ducks and DF-21 sinks every last USN carrier before they so much as launch a plane. Nobody really knows but given that both USN and PLAN are building carriers it seems the consensus is that they're not useless sitting ducks. So assuming they are is perhaps a bit hasty.

Of course sometimes the military planners are wrong and things develop differently from expectations. Let's say that carriers really are extremely vulnerable. What then? Well most likely the answer would be to simply not have carriers, not build smaller more expendable carriers. After WW2 heavy battleships with thick armor went away, they weren't really replaced with smaller versions of themselves. What if air power turns out to be very important and you absolutely must have it? Even in that scenario I don't envision very small carriers being built, rather what will most likely happen is the defender will simply have an overwhelming advantage and attacks across long distances without nearby land bases just becomes impossible. At the end of the day I just don't think you can make the cost benefit of very small carriers to be worth it.
While battleships were not replaced by smaller versions of themselves, some of the role that they filled during WW2 were replaced by newer ships that filled similar roles. My suggestion is not simply for a smaller version of supercarriers, but something different that can fill some of the role of the carrier which is sustainable air superiority in the open ocean. Other roles such as aerial ISR in the open ocean would not be replicated on such a ship.

Its role is not an air base in the ocean, its role would solely be a moving platform. Its capabilities would be cut down as much as possible compared to a regular carrier so that it can accomplish that one role. It wouldn't just carry less aircrafts, it would cut down on many other things e.g. repairs, radar, and aircraft types. They wouldn't need simultaneous launch and recovery capabilities, they'd carry just one type of aircraft, they'd only be able to do basic maintenance on the aircraft itself, they'd need hangar space for only maybe 1 or 2 aircrafts for maintenance operations. In some ways it's also like the Soviet tank doctrine vs. the Western one, where the crew and the gear has much more limited responsibilities and everything else would need to be done at port whereas Western counterparts can do many of them in the field.

The actual air base in the ocean would then be fulfilled by carriers far larger than today's and would be capable of carrying anything that the air force can carry including the likes of naval equivalents of Y-20 and H-20. They would be far behind the picket fence of smaller, more expendable platforms but also providing them with the ISR, EW, refueling, long range strike, etc. needs.
 

ENTED64

Junior Member
Registered Member
While battleships were not replaced by smaller versions of themselves, some of the role that they filled during WW2 were replaced by newer ships that filled similar roles.
Not really, battleships main role was to have the heaviest armor and biggest guns practical to defeat other battleships. Maybe you can say they were replaced by ships that filled "similar roles" in that the new ships were also designed to sink enemy ships but that's true of all navies since navies have existed. Rather what really happened was the idea of having the thickest armor and biggest guns simply went away because it wasn't efficient any more.

The actual air base in the ocean would then be fulfilled by carriers far larger than today's and would be capable of carrying anything that the air force can carry including the likes of naval equivalents of Y-20 and H-20. They would be far behind the picket fence of smaller, more expendable platforms but also providing them with the ISR, EW, refueling, long range strike, etc. needs.
The thing is tanks can be made more expendable more easily than carriers can be. As I said, there's a lot of fixed costs with navy ships, especially if you want to have a catapult and flight operations on them, that it's hard to really imagine actually expendable carriers. I'm just pretty skeptical this can be done economically enough that the cost benefit is actually worth it.

please, Who maybe update type004 buiding or not yet.
It's rumored to be under construction but we don't really know or have solid proof it is. We aren't 100% sure yet if the photos we have show a CVN or something else. Only thing we can do is keep waiting for more news.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
IMO it's not a good idea for any weapons platform to be so big and expensive as to no longer be expendable. It's OT but I wonder if there are plans for mini-carriers, just one cat and one runway, carrying maybe 5-6 aircrafts. Then a CAG would be something like a mega carrier with long range bombers 500+kms behind with dozens of mini-carriers with multirole fighters spearheading and guarding the flanks.
I think any aircraft carrier below 50k tonnes is a great misuse of resources. With shipbuilding, costs grow slower than the ship displacement (for realistic sizes). The cargo capacity increases at the same rate or faster than the displacement. This is why transoceanic shipping always go for the largest vessels the infrastructure allows.

This is even more true for aircraft carriers because some facilities would have a constant size. The radar and headquarters services would stay the same. Engine maintenance facilities have a minimum size, medical facilities have a minimum size, elevators and catapult equipment have a constant size, point defenses have a constant size... Examples are too many to list. So, mini carriers are even less capable than their displacements suggest compared to larger carriers.

There is also the topic of force concentrations. A carrier needs to be able to generate meaningful air power packages. Imagine a carrier with 6 aircraft generating an anti-ship package. Have 3 aircraft escort the package. Now, that package has just 3 aircraft to launch ASCMs. It also has a horrible survivability because of the very low number of escorts. It has no EW or AEW aircraft, and there is nothing left to defend the carrier. This is still being generous to the mini carrier because a mini carrier may not be able to accommodate appropriate types of aircraft at all. It also won't always have all of its 6 aircraft ready.

Being able to generate sorties from more locations is beneficial. Thus, I don't rule out PLAN going for a high-low mix in carriers. But if that happens it will happen with large carriers. For example a 70k tonne CV would make the low and a 100k+ tonne CVN would make the high. There would be no mini carrier.
 
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