J-35A fighter (PLAAF) + FC-31 thread

[tphuang]

In that case I think it is important to contextualize that the overall discussion was specifically about longer term procurement of aircraft and CAC's ability to sustain high rates of production to meet PLA 5th gen demands while preserving their own organizational health and other project commitments.


I don't think anyone would challenge the idea that CAC could have a year or two where they build significantly more than 100 J-20 airframes in a year. 140 sure, or even 150.
But what matters isn't one off production peaks, but sustained production rate averages over a decade or so.

Right, I think PLA's long term procurement from CAC in general and J-20 program is also dependent on what else it wants to buy from there. If there is a lot of demand for CCA from CAC, then J-20 production probably can't sustain more than current level. But I don't think there is proof that raising overall production to say 150 a year would be harmful for CAC's long term health.

Remember 3 years ago, you thought CAC would basically average around 50 J-20s a year and I thought they would get to 70. It turned out both of us were really underestimating things.

At the end of the day, PLA has a fixed budget. It's also incentivized to make sure SAC is doing well and productive long term. So, SAC's J-35 production is also likely dependent on whether its CCA program gets more orders and also how many export orders it gets.

 

[Aval]

J-20 is superior in the PLAAF air tactics due to its superior transonic and supersonic performances
View attachment 153818

That leads to the question - Would the PLANAF use similar/same tactics and have the J-35 as an inferior stand-in for the J-20, or do they envision a different approach tailored to the J-35's strengths and weaknesses? And could these developments be backported to the J-35A in PLAAF service? And would these tactics end up proving themselves superior to the current J-20 tactics?

And similarly, would the J-35A be similar enough to the J-35 to use the same tactics if backported, or would it be shoe-horned in as an inferior J-20 in PLAAF tactics? I think we should be on the look-out for how differences of J-35A vs J-35 could impact their usage in their respective services (of course, currently not much can be accurately inferred given how we know so little of the J-35 family).

 

[vincent]

That leads to the question - Would the PLANAF use similar/same tactics and have the J-35 as an inferior stand-in for the J-20, or do they envision a different approach tailored to the J-35's strengths and weaknesses? And could these developments be backported to the J-35A in PLAAF service? And would these tactics end up proving themselves superior to the current J-20 tactics?

And similarly, would the J-35A be similar enough to the J-35 to use the same tactics if backported, or would it be shoe-horned in as an inferior J-20 in PLAAF tactics? I think we should be on the look-out for how differences of J-35A vs J-35 could impact their usage in their respective services (of course, currently not much can be accurately inferred given how we know so little of the J-35 family).

In theory J-35A’s flight performance should be much better than J-35 due to the removal of folding wings and airframe structural strengthening.

There is no question J-35/J-35A will have their own set of tactics tailored to their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Kich]

I think India having a hundred 5th gen fighters is the realistic worse case scenario by 2033.
That doesn't change the overall strategic balances in any significant way.

And by 2033, I expect the first production J-36s to be ready.

Sell J-35s to Pakistan and India will be forced to acquire 5th gens fighters in the hundreds, possibly F-35s by mid 2030s.

Hearing talks of giving J-35s to Pakistans for deferred debt payments [aka for free] is probably one of the most stupid geopolitical moves by China I've ever seen. Of course this hasn't been officially confirmed yet by Chinese officials so who knows where the truth actual lies.

China shouldn't rush this process for India in forcing them to upgrade. By upping the balance in favor of their true nemesis Pakistan, that's what China will be doing.

 

[qwerty3173]

Sell J-35s to Pakistan and India will be forced to acquire 5th gens fighters in the hundreds, possibly F-35s by late 2020s and mid 2030s.

Hearing talks of giving J-35s to Pakistans for deferred debt payments [aka for free] is probably one of the most stupid geopolitical moves by China I've ever seen. Of course this hasn't been officially confirmed yet by Chinese officials so who knows where the truth actual lies.

China shouldn't rush this process for India in forcing them to upgrade. By upping the balance in favor of their true nemesis Pakistan, that's what China will be doing.

Sure India can choose to upgrade, but in the hundreds? You have to understand Indian budget and production capacity of potential sellers are highly limited in this concern. Sending over year's worth of production to India has that helping others by endangering one self sort of vibe,

 

[neutralobserver]

Sell J-35s to Pakistan and India will be forced to acquire 5th gens fighters in the hundreds, possibly F-35s by late 2020s and mid 2030s.

Hearing talks of giving J-35s to Pakistans for deferred debt payments [aka for free] is probably one of the most stupid geopolitical moves by China I've ever seen. Of course this hasn't been officially confirmed yet by Chinese officials so who knows where the truth actual lies.

China shouldn't rush this process for India in forcing them to upgrade. By upping the balance in favor of their true nemesis Pakistan, that's what China will be doing.

There’s no such thing as a free J-35. Pakistan has paid for all the weapons it has acquired from China and all loans will be repaid in future as well. Pakistan has not defaulted on any loans to China (or any other creditor for that matter, loan deferments != default). PS: J10 is enough to keep IAF grounded for the time being in any conflict just like it was grounded recently and could only operate from deep inside Indian Air Space.

 

[4Tran]

I'd say things are now reaching the question the Americans have been been pondering for a decade - Is the F-22 really sufficiently superior to the F-35 to form a proper Hi/Lo mix in both its procurement and combat doctrine? The F-22 is an old plane, and unlike the J-20 it didn't get a significant MLU (J-20 -> J-20A) to keep it apace with the next fighter in the same generation that benefits from at least 10 years of technological progression (both F-35 and J-35). The legendary status of the F-22 from which it derives its superiority over the F-35 in popular perception is the same kind of illogical belief that the J-20 is intrinsically superior to the J-35 by virtue of being the first and an air-superiority design even when they are a decade apart in technology. And I say this as someone who is very biased towards the J-20.

For the US, the decision was easy because its wasn't even a decision. F-22 procurement ended very early, and before the F-35 debuted, which means it didn't need/couldn't to be considered in terms of Hi/Lo procurement. And in terms of combat doctrine, the US military generally only refers to the F-35 in its future plans, which does suggest how they view even the F-22 units they have in existence.

But since the J-20 is still being produced and production is at max/ramping up while J-35 production is starting, clearly the J-20 is not any worse (in the PLA's perception) than the J-35 even if its stealth is inferior. There must be qualities that still justifies the J-20's higher price yet worse stealth (other than simply filling up numbers when there is sufficient funds and existing J-20 production lines). Although I doubt we'll ever get an official source on why the PLA thinks the J-20 is better (or at least equal) to the J-35. Perhaps they just know that stealth isn't the be-all-end-all, even for 5th-gens, and that the J-20s greater range and (possibly?) maneuverability and speed makes is superior overall. I think we should speculate on this platforms comparison, as it may impact procurement numbers of J-20/A vs J-35/A in the coming decades.

Primary question: Is the J-20/A superior to the J-35/A?
Secondary question: If so, or if not: Why?

Overall, the F-22 is a air superiority fighter that can do a bit of ground attack whereas the F-35 is a modern multirole fighter. Overall, the F-35 is probably a much better plane but the F-22 should be superior in the anti-air role. Another key factor to note is that in a West Pacific conflict, it will be very hard for the USAF to base any F-22s within the first island chain and its short legs mean that basing out of Guam is not a good option.

The J-20 and J-35 combo is in a similar state, with the main difference being that both planes are modern, and that the air superiority role is much more important for the PLAAF. As such, there is a clear division of labor between the two for any give scenario. Moreover, the J-20 is supposed to be a very expensive plane so it's likely going to be expensive to operate as well. If the J-35 is cheaper to both acquire and operate then that adds a lot of extra value to the mix.

That leads to the question - Would the PLANAF use similar/same tactics and have the J-35 as an inferior stand-in for the J-20, or do they envision a different approach tailored to the J-35's strengths and weaknesses? And could these developments be backported to the J-35A in PLAAF service? And would these tactics end up proving themselves superior to the current J-20 tactics?

And similarly, would the J-35A be similar enough to the J-35 to use the same tactics if backported, or would it be shoe-horned in as an inferior J-20 in PLAAF tactics? I think we should be on the look-out for how differences of J-35A vs J-35 could impact their usage in their respective services (of course, currently not much can be accurately inferred given how we know so little of the J-35 family).

The biggest difference between the way the J-35 and J-35A are employed is going to be more about their operational usage rather than the difference between their specs. J-35 is going to be the top end naval fighter until the Chinese carriers get 6th gen planes so it will have to do everything from air superiority and strike roles. On the other hand, the J-35A will get more specialized roles depending on what gets assigned to rest of the force mix.

 

[minime]

J-35A, 8 ton fuel, good enough range, multi-role
J-20, 12 ton fuel, longer range, better kinetic performance, anti-air
Same level of stealth, and unlike F35/F22, J-35/J-20 both equip with latest avionics tech and J-20 is more powerful.
In other word, J-20 can do J-35A can't, not the other way around.

To me, being so late to the game, J-35A is like a backup plan, nice to have but not a pressing matter as J-20 is cranking out 100+ per year.
After all, you have mass fleet of flanker family for attack mission in PLAAF after J-20 secure the air space.
And J-35A can't maintain stealth profile if carrying stand-off attack weapon.
So it's not a hi-low mix like F-16/F-15, and not a F35/F22 mix either.
It's more like a buddy watching your back so J-20 can focus.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Same level of stealth, and unlike F35/F22, J-35/J-20 both equip with latest avionics tech and J-20 is more powerful.
In other word, J-20 can do J-35A can't, not the other way around.

J-20 is a 2017 aircraft, 2018 in it's current form(more or less).
Expecting the same level of stealth and avionics from it as from a 2025 aircraft is quite... optimistic/pessimistic, depending on the point of view.
But what is J-20A in this case?

After all, you have mass fleet of flanker family for attack mission in PLAAF after J-20 secure the air space.

Flankers aren't stealth. Was proven again just today.

And J-35A can't maintain stealth profile if carrying stand-off attack weapon.

They can do stand-in, which is much, much more.
And they can launch stand off from their bays, too. Just smaller.

 

[antiterror13]

What do you think about 076 deployments? I think there could be a good number of 076s, maybe 4-8 in total.

How many J-35 can be carried by 076?