J-20... The New Generation Fighter

[dingyibvs]

Re: New Generation Fighter

You both make highly valid points, but it goes back to the point earlier about how advancement of components is not the same as the advanced integration of parts. I suppose it hurts the discussion when we discuss things in general as the progress of components does not always follow the same curve as the development of the whole. However, I think it's safe to say that in a multi-component product, the rate of progress can only match that of the most lagging component, which in China's case would be the engine, airframe, and design aspects of a modern fighter. I think that's what I meant when I compared the J-10s progress to that of the F-16. Obviously the J-10 benefits from being the lagger, but I think in broad strokes, if we talk about engine and airframe, the implementation of the J-10 design is 30 years behind. We can however say that because of the component parts developed at different times the J-10 as a platform overall might mature faster than the F-16. In any case, I don't think there's a right and wrong to this particular point. It's primarily how you frame things and the metrics you use to gauge how many years country X is behind country Y, which as mentioned earlier, makes the discussion vague and spin-worthy.

I think what the general meant when he said "fielded" was when the J-XX would have first flight. In that sense the F-22 first flew around 1990. If the J-xx flies anywhere from 2015-20, that's a good 25-30 years after the F-22 went into first flight. Undoubtedly the gap will narrow, particularly as the F-22 and F-35's turnover rates will likely be slower than the J-XXs, but I don't see that gap narrowing as quickly as some might be indicating.

I can see where you're coming from, it wouldn't be so difficult to make the case that some China is still a good 25-30 years behind the U.S. in some key areas, most ostensibly the engine. I'm not sure about the F-22 comparison tho, since while the YF-22 flew in the early '90s, I think the F-22 actually first flew in the late '90s and wasn't fielded till the early 2000's.

I don't think my analysis of catching up in 10 years every 20 years is terribly off. It'll obviously slow down as the gap closes since China would have less to learn from, but even without a slowdown, it would still mean that China would catch up only after 2050.

 

[rhino123]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Well... perhaps we should not be comparing with US. I recognise that China had been making a number of breakthrough in recent years, but look at it this way, China started off modernising at pretty low a level and pretty late... so it is understandable that China is still lagging behind in many areas when comparing to the US.

But I am not saying that China couldn't catch up or what. In fact, the progress of the Chinese is pretty impressive thus far, but still there are much catching up to do.

And basically I think it is really difficult to quantity or put a figure as to by how far China is when compare to US.

But we must also note that US is the most advance technological nation in the world at present time, there really is no one to be on par as of yet. Comparison of China's tech with US is not really very wise to do as of now... instead, we should be comparing China's tech with perhaps other western nations, Russians, etc.

And as of now... I believe, US is the only country that fielded operation readied stealth fighters, (Russia's PAK-FA, is still not operationally readied)... so the mere fact that China is close to fielding one soon, already told us heaps of China's capability at the moment.

 

[tphuang]

Re: New Generation Fighter

you better cross check your sources,there's one thing to remember most of sources from chinese website turn out to be unreliable,to date there is no official news about the engine.
other problem is that most of chinese website,tend to have wildly optimistic or expect too much ,which often lead to exaggeration what they saw , heard or read. good example, is that I notice there's a blogger in China claim that J-11B is a "stealth aircraft"!! J-10B technological a par to F-35!!!!
the hard reality is that China still 3 decade behind US.

You should not disrespect one of the most reputable sources on Chinese bbs. Maya knows what he is talking about. You, on the other hand, consistently get the worst sources and post nonsense. The entire part about WS-15 being WS-9 upgraded started because one guy with reps said that and he later recanted it.

 

[challenge]

Re: New Generation Fighter

one of the big problem for JH-7A was under power, or insufficient thrust(Chinese flight magazine even admit it) J-11B prove to be very expensive alternative, so become logical to extend the JH-7 service beyond 2020.but before they can do it they needed a smaller compact,high thrust engine to replace WS-9. this where WS-15 come in.
WS-15 power JH-7 could provide the aircraft with shorter land way,particular in carrier flight deck. already there's picture of JH-7 fitted arresting hook.

 

[Deino]

Re: New Generation Fighter

one of the big problem for JH-7A was under power, or insufficient thrust(Chinese flight magazine even admit it) J-11B prove to be very expensive alternative, so become logical to extend the JH-7 service beyond 2020.but before they can do it they needed a smaller compact,high thrust engine to replace WS-9. this where WS-15 come in.
WS-15 power JH-7 could provide the aircraft with shorter land way,particular in carrier flight deck. already there's picture of JH-7 fitted arresting hook.

Sorry to step in .. but the JH-7 becoming a carrier based type !! :rofl: ...

And that picture ... can You please show it, since I've never seen one.

Deino

 

[plawolf]

Re: New Generation Fighter

one of the big problem for JH-7A was under power, or insufficient thrust(Chinese flight magazine even admit it) J-11B prove to be very expensive alternative, so become logical to extend the JH-7 service beyond 2020.but before they can do it they needed a smaller compact,high thrust engine to replace WS-9. this where WS-15 come in.
WS-15 power JH-7 could provide the aircraft with shorter land way,particular in carrier flight deck. already there's picture of JH-7 fitted arresting hook.

I'll have to agree with Deino here and :roll:

Please enlighten us on how a carrier based JH7 could pass the BS detector in the first place?

 

[getready]

Re: New Generation Fighter

You should not disrespect one of the most reputable sources on Chinese bbs. Maya knows what he is talking about. You, on the other hand, consistently get the worst sources and post nonsense. The entire part about WS-15 being WS-9 upgraded started because one guy with reps said that and he later recanted it.

did challenge just get pwned?

 

[AssassinsMace]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Regarding issues about the technology gap...it's only a matter of time. China has the money, the resources, and the talent. The Shenzhou 7 space mission launching the BX-1 micro satellite showed a facet of China's advances where no one can claim it was stolen from anyone because no one else has been able to do it yet. All this is history repeating itself but the roles are reversed. Just as the West once lagged behind in technology learning and accumulating from others to eventually surpass those they learn it from, that's what's happening now but faster because of the information age. Virtually every weapon system today it can be said has some idea in it originated in China. But do they acknowledge that? Just as China develops new weapons systems, they'll take credit but all you have to do is look at "their" inventions and see the Chinese influences that without them, it wouldn't be.

 

[taimikhan]

Re: New Generation Fighter

No need to take that long.
FWS-13 is just a clone of RD-33，or rather a domestic derivative engine.

That is strange, as some sources said its not entirely a copy of RD-33/93, rather its based on either western tech or has impression of western/russian both technologies.

Anyway, let the final product come online, then we may know the real truth.

 

[challenge]

Re: New Generation Fighter

Sorry to step in .. but the JH-7 becoming a carrier based type !! :rofl: ...

And that picture ... can You please show it, since I've never seen one.

Deino

about few years ago, picture of chinese airbase appear in google map.among aircraft identified in the airbase was fold wing JH-7 ,I believe the picture appear in 2004 (05?).